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Carbine Oiler Question


RWW
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The Air Force put a carbine oiler in Survival Kits when there was a rifle packed in them.  Below is a photo of the page from a Personal Equipment Officers Manual describing the oiler.  Has anyone ever seen one that was sealed with paint?  If so, what kind of paint was used?  Finally, does anyone have any information on filling and sealing the oiler?  I realize just because he manual "says" doesn't mean that is the way it was.412855310_CarbineOiler3.JPG.3a98ada64b62d7a1a7eecf3418b1ec1c.JPG

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OLDNAVYNUKESPOOK

I've never seen paint on the top of any but, FWIW, the early ones had a leather gasket in the top and later ones had a rubber gasket.  Paint would've been extraneous.  Of course, that's not the first time the Military did something more than needed.  "Dual channel for reliability" comes to mind.

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I have never seen an oiler with oil in it let alone one with paint on the top.  I did know the leather gaskets were the older oilers. In the mid to late 1950's and 1960's I am making a semieducated guess that the oilers would likely have been marked IS and maybe an occasional BK.  It would make sense to tighten the top to a point it would take a tool to open them before putting then in a survival kit, so I can see that part of the description.  There was a specific oil, JAN-L-644, than was called for in the oilers, so I can't help but think maybe the armory was tasked with filling them and if they were to be sealed with paint, that would be part of the same directive.  Possibly a TB ORD publication of some sort??? 

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I don't believe it means they were sealed with paint, just that the oilers were painted, and any paint around the joint would have to be removed to allow untightening.  As for painting the oilers, I hazard a guess it was a long term storage issue.

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All the oilers I have seen were either Parkerized or Blued.  I have never seen one that was simply painted, so I don't think it refers to that.  That is another question that comes to mind, was there a date or time period oilers went from being Parkerized to Blued?  It may be one of those things an administrative person writing the manual put in that the working man had no idea about???  To quote a good friend, The mysteries continue!  Please continue to give thoughts and insights!  The more we throw up against the wall, the more likely something is stick!

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I have seen oilers with black paint/Japaned  on the top. They were used and were empty. Having never read the above before I thought it was just painted by a user. It most likely was but there is a possibility, although slight,  the paint could have been applied by the government.  I don’t know if I have one left but if I do it is either an IS or BK parkerized and most likely had a rubber gasket. The govt did the same thing to the tops of many M3 knives as a preservative prior to putting them in long term storage. 

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Just checked Craig Reisch's carbine book. He mentioned that some early oilers were blued, most parkerized.  No mention of any being painted for storage or otherwise. Leather washers were WW2, and replaced by rubber post war.  SKIP

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Since the oilers mentioned are in a survival kit I strongly suspect the paint was applied between the top and body as a seal.  

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Thanks for the great information!  It makes perfect sense to seal an oiler going in a survival kit and yes, around the top and body would be the place.

 

ccyooper:   If you still have an oiler with paint/japaned on it, please post a picture, or make me a fair price on it!  Most likely the paint would have been applied at the local base level .  I have never seen the Air Force document specifying how the oilers would be sealed and with what.  The above description is the only thing I have seen.  I would think the Survival Equipment Shop would requisition X number of oilers from the Ordinance Shop and tell them to fill them with the specified oil and then seal them with paint.  I can't really see some guy sitting there with a paint brush neatly applying paint.  I picture the dip and dunk method of sticking the top of the oiler in a can of paint and standing it up to dry.

 

It is good to know that someone has seen the oilers with paint on them!  At least there is some credence to them being painted as a seal.

 

When you say "post war" for rubber gaskets, are we talking early 1950's or 1960's as post war?  I know there had to be a hard date when the spec changed , any idea when that was?

 

This is a great example of my hobby spilling over into someone else's hobby.  Thank you so much for helping me learn a little about that part of my hobby that overlaps with your hobby!  This is what makes USMF such a great resource!!!

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I found an old CMP forum from 10 years ago about CMP selling the oilers.  Below is one of the posts from Bill Ricca.  He was responding to a post that referred to the Craig Riesch book, "U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production"  Mr. Ricca seems to be a respected source, so based on this post, it looks like oilers used in the 1950's and 1060's would be surplus WW II since he states there were no Korean War production of oilers.  Is my logic in the following statement correct.  If oilers were ordered by the Air Force during this time frame, they would likely have been marked IS and have leather gaskets?  

 

Bill Ricca

03-09-2010, 11:00 PM

Disregard that book. Most of the Oiler information is wrong.

WWII oilers were parkerized, blued, and dull black.

BK was WWII

KJ does not exist.

SN was Korean with a date circa 1976-80.

Here are US GI from WWII:

IW, II, ISP, BK, IQ, IN, IR, SW, IS

There was no Korean War production of oilers.

Circa 1957/58 - Polley Bros and Verson

1972 - Unmarked Yankee Hill Machine. It has a very unique finish and no foreign or repro look like it.

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On 1/8/2021 at 12:29 PM, RWW said:

When you say "post war" for rubber gaskets, are we talking early 1950's or 1960's as post war?  I know there had to be a hard date when the spec changed , any idea when that was?

Larry Ruth in War Baby! cites TB Ord 415 (Oct 17, 1951) announcing the change of the washer change to rubber.

 

More from Bill Ricca here http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=69750

 

On 1/6/2021 at 9:38 AM, RWW said:

There was a specific oil, JAN-L-644,

Curious as to where that is from?

Since recently bought two different cans of Light Preservative and Lubricating Oil I've been looking at when different specifications were in use.

JAN L 644 is a new one to me.

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I collect aircrew survival gear.  The spec. for the SAC E-1 kit calls for JAN-L-644, which became MIL-L-644 about the same time the kit spec came out.  I have a couple of other documents that call for 644 oil in survival kits where an oiler was packed in the kit with a rifle.  I suspect it was designed for cold or arctic weather. Below are a 1952, 1962, & 1970 cans of oil.  The 1962 and 1970 cans have the same FSN, but the 1970 can shows spec. of VV-L-800.  Since they have the same FSN, I don't know if the spec was changed, or 644 was changed to 800.  I have no idea what type or spec oil would have been used in the oilers when it was used on the sling of an M-1 Carbine.

1661344549_OilandOiler.JPG.a9882a8ad2edaacb58678dd76293b910.JPG

oil1.jpg.419cd93da8d3dd2b2acfebf4b754ef90.jpg

358392977_Oil2.jpg.5e4e8d6d75e0eb5a60ffbf313466496b.jpg

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PS:  Thanks for the post on when oiler gaskets went from leather to rubber! Without seeing the wording of TB ORD 415, just because the spec for new oilers was changed, did the pub say to change the gasket on all oilers currently in stock?  As many oilers as I have seen that still have leather gaskets, I have to think that it didn't.  If that is the case, and Bill Ricca's CMP post is correct, if there were no Korean war oilers made, then until oilers were made again in 1957 / 1958, wouldn't they still have leather gaskets until then?  The exception would have probably been oilers that were on carbines that went in maintenance that leaked or had a damaged gasket.  Those would likely have been replaced with a rubber gasket.  If my logic is flawed, please tell me!

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PSS: I just read all 3pages of the CMP forum post.  It looks like it was 1972 before production oilers had rubber gaskets and they were unmarked and made by Yankee Hill Machine Company.  It also says what I speculated, many leather gaskets were changed for rubber, but nothing about it being a mandatory change for oilers in stock.  That was some great information!  Thanks for bringing it to my attention!!! 

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7 minutes ago, RWW said:

Those would likely have been replaced with a rubber gasket.  If my logic is flawed, please tell me!

I don't know.   Seems logical to me.  I'm still just learn about this stuff.

Someplace recently I saw a picture of a document (probably the TB ORD 415) about the gasket change, but at the moment I can't remember where or find it.

 

I appreciate your filling in on the JAN-L and MIL spec designations.

 

What I have found indicates that Special Preservative and Lubricating Oil was for the gun oil for cold climate and arctic use up through 1945. and Light Preservative and Lubricating Oil was the normal oil.   Between 1945 and 1947 the Light oil was being phased out.  TM9-1276 January 1947 states that Special Oil replaces it for all situations when stocks are depleted. 

Also around 1945 a new designation system (and perhaps new specifications) came into use.

"Specification No: USA 2-120 (formerly AXS-777) or O.S. 1361, also superceded AXS-702 (Rev. 1)"  from This Week in Iron Age 1945 (google snip)

USA 2-120 is the Special Preservative and Lubricating Oil.

Below is a can currently for sale on e-bay.

 

Below thatOil-Spcl-2oz_sq_AP_2.JPG.bcb867964a1743153ae064c3d83ea209.JPG

 

Here's is description from the October 1951 version of the TM9-850.  Notice it has the (PL-Special) designation seen on your cans.

PL-S_1951_TM9-850.jpg.5f96d6c1a2554f2ed0f5f6d53107e3df.jpg

 

 

 

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JAN stood for Joint Army Navy spec, I am not sure the exact date all the specs changed to MIL for Military spec.  Thanks for posting the description of PL - Special.  If you ever run across the TB ORD, I would love to see it! I still have lots to learn as well.  There is an old saying I try to live by, "I have never met a person I can't learn something from, but I have sure met a few that I can't teach anything to..."  I always try to be the first part of that.  Thanks for teaching me something!

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Any idea what JAN designates?

 

I ask because there seems to be a parallel with the L-xxxx specifications.

The can on the right contains ALOX L-1165M Gun Oil.

There is a similar can on e-bay without ALOX.  (Best I can determine so far is Alox was the name of a company as well as a product.)

 

Oil-light-Milsurpcans 9276-cropped.jpg

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  • 2 years later...
On 1/5/2021 at 11:54 PM, RWW said:

The Air Force put a carbine oiler in Survival Kits when there was a rifle packed in them.  Below is a photo of the page from a Personal Equipment Officers Manual describing the oiler.

This just came up over at the Carbine Collectors Club, and I shared this thread.

The question was asked whether the Personal Equipment Officers Manual is where it states the oiler was included in the kit when a rifle was packed in them?

 

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Early survival kits were ordered from a supplier complete with a specific list of components.  Most of these kits included a rifle and an oiler is listed as one of the components in the

MIL- Spec for the kit.  So, there are several places where you can find that an oiler was included in the kits, not just in the Personal Equipment Officers Manual. When the Air Force changed from ordering kits for a specific climate complete with components to a Base Assembly method of putting components in kits based on the location and mission on a wing, the rifle and oiler became optional components. 

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