Jump to content

has anyone done a in order list?


mruiz
 Share

Recommended Posts

I was researching on Google, and did not find. An order in witch fighting knives for the Army, Navy, USMC were issued from the beginning of 1940 until the end of Vietnam war?

like. bayonets are not to hard to follow.

PH 35,36, CASE, 

1. MK 1   first

2. MK 2  second

3. KABAR mark N.Y  third 1942-1943

4. KABAR not mark N.Y fourth 1943-45

5. CATTARAGUS 225Q  fifth ???

6. CORNETTA...

etc. .....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My M-series bayonet, knife, and scabbard list:

 

M1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand, 10"

M2 - paratrooper switchblade knife

M3 - scabbard for the M1905 (aka M1942) 16" bayonet

M3 - fighting/trench knife produced 1943-1944

M4 - bayonet for the M1 Carbine produced with leather and later plastic grips

M5 and M5A1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand introduced in 1954

M6 - leather scabbard for the M3 knife

M6 - bayonet for the M14 rifle

M7 - bayonet for the M16 rifle

M7 - scabbard for the M1 bayonet

M8 and M8A1 - scabbards for the M3 through M7

M9 - bayonet for the M16/M4 rifles introduced in 1986

M10 - black plastic scabbard for the M7

M11 - EOD knife

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

mruiz- Good question, and I believe M.H. Cole has a fairly good sequential order of US. knives in his "U.S. Military Knives, Bayonets, & Machetes", book III.  What one has to keep in mind is the fact a lot of edged weapons were carried over from conflict to conflict. Two examples right of the top of my head were, Mark 1 Trench knives, they came out right at the end of WW1, and were initially the main issue combat knife in WW2. M1905 bayonets were carried over an used throughout  WW2, along with their variety of scabbards. You can also add a variety of machetes, and in some cases, bolos. To go a step further WW2 USN MK2 knives were an issue item to US Special Forces troops up until 1990ish. Why get rid of something that works?  Back to your original question, I believe Cole is a great source. Keep in mind upgrades and replacement is a constant in dealing with military equipment.   Another good example, the M7 bayonet still served when the M9 came out, and even the USMC OKC bayonet, so there is a substantial amount of overlap.  SKIP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MATTS, great list to save.

But it lacking fighting knifes not listed. For example the Western series, (shark), the MK 2, the KA-BAR series.

The dates they stared showing up (issued) for Soldiers, Seamen and Marines? I understand the 1905 Bayonet works on the 1903 and was used on the A3 also and then cut down.

I guess with out the book, it's a toss up.

Thanx

 mitch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

mitch, it's kind of a minefield if you're looking for specific dates, or sequence. In some cases knives were simply bought off the shelf hunting knives. Not necessarily procured as an issue item.  SKIP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, mruiz said:

MATTS, great list to save.

But it lacking fighting knifes not listed. For example the Western series, (shark), the MK 2, the KA-BAR series.

The dates they stared showing up (issued) for Soldiers, Seamen and Marines? I understand the 1905 Bayonet works on the 1903 and was used on the A3 also and then cut down.

I guess with out the book, it's a toss up.

Thanx

 mitch

 

Yeah, that just covers "M-series" bayonets, knives, and scabbards, I don't know enough about fighting knives to try and compile that list. 

Here's some dates, from memory so perhaps not 100% accurate:

M1 - 1943 bayonet for the M1 Garand, 10"

M2 - 1942 paratrooper switchblade knife

M3 - 1942 scabbard for the M1905 (aka M1942) 16" bayonet

M3 - 1943-44 fighting/trench knife 

M4 - 1944 bayonet for the M1 Carbine produced with leather and later plastic grips

M5 and M5A1 - 1954/56 bayonet for the M1 Garand 

M6 - 1943-44 leather scabbard for the M3 knife

M6 - 1957 bayonet for the M14 rifle

M7 - 1964 bayonet for the M16 rifle

M7 - 1943 scabbard for the M1 bayonet

M8 and M8A1 - 1944 scabbards for the M3 through M7

M9 - 1986 bayonet for the M16/M4 rifles 

M10 - black plastic scabbard for the M7

M11 - EOD knife

 

For more info, see the late Gary Cunningham's excellent articles called "Bayonet Points": http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayonet_points.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMHO, there is no way to establish an accurate and uncontested list of fighting knives in some order of appearance. You'll be better off trying to herd cats.  It maybe more productive to gather what can be found about the many different ways these items got into the hands of our service personnel.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sactroop has a very valid point, however, you can make a list. Using the keyword "issued" knife from the original post one can make a discernable list. As for "issued" knives one only needs to seek the Tables of Organization and Equipment. Here, you'll find the allotments of edged implements. It wouldn't take long to put together a timeline according to revision dates to these T/O&E's. The list of "issue" knives would be very short, to also include bayonets, like the lists above. These are edged tools typically developed and adopted by various branches. As an example, for the US Navy, they really only had two "issued" knives, MK1 and MK2. Though 5-inch knives were procured prior to the official MK1, they did have a different stock number. Rabbit Hole-to-Rabbit Hole 

 

To Sactroop's point, a list for fighting or hunting knives wouldn't be possible, especially by maker.  The best you'd be able to do is by blade size such as 5-inch blade or 6-inch blade etc. As for an example, USAAF T/O&E's eventually added the allotment of the hunting knife to many allotments. This we can surmise are those AAC procured pattern types (Add any make you want). To determine a make, one would have to have precise procurement data to know which came first, even then it would be splitting hairs. If one were to further along those USAAF tables you'd find revisions that amend that to the M3/M6 then eventually to the M4/M8. One would have to research by service and even branch of. The USMC would probably be the easiest, 1219c2, the end of that. One also has to understand that knives were stocked according to blade lengths, the US Navy for example has several different stock listings according to blade lengths, here you have many makers as well. Overall, the system is/was way too convoluted to really make any uncontested (as Sactroop states) accurate list. 

 

What's been presented so far are Army Ordnance issued knives and bayonets, then one needs to look at Bureau of Ordnance issued knives. "M" and "MK" series stuff, by far the easiest to assemble (Government Patterns). Fighting and Hunting knives of commercial patterns can be considered issued tools but you have to be specific to what arena you're looking at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to come across on this as a wet blanket, which I think I may have already achieved. Old lost information comes to light by the perseverance of those looking for answers to the questions they have. Even if the information isn't directly related to the question they had in mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I  was just brain storming a close to accurate list, for reference and collecting.  MR. Dusting and Sactroop, you guys should take the lead on this quest?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know next to nothing about USN and USMC issued knives, and the USAAF, US Army Aviation, and USAF pilot knives are only vaguely familiar to me because I carried an Army aircrew survival knife for 4 years. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frank Trzaska

Years ago I put together a list of knives, bayonets and machetes I know were used by the US Military. I did not even attempt to put dates to them as that seems like a nightmare rabbit hole to go down. I don't think it can be done. As far as I know I have never seen an actual list anywhere other then on my site I have listed.  http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_list.htm

 

Strictly knives, the USMC and the 1219C2 is in itself not at all positively dated as most of those records do not exist anymore. But it is not the only one, the Raiders had at least three knives officially purchased and issued, the ParaMarines had their own as well. Marine engineers had their own as did Hospital Corps ( it is a bolo knife after all.) If you count pocket knives there are more still. And the USMC is the smallest of the military departments so it should be easy right.... 

 

As for term "Issued" we all have our own opinions. DOD prime contractors, sub contractors, unit purchases, local purchases, Bureau, Corp, purchases, all these different operating agencies purchased knives and "issued" them to the troops. If a guys stands in line and his commanding officer reaches into a box and hands him a knife is that "issued"? It would be to me. Remember "Save a Life with a Knife" during WW II where the folks back home sent in every knife they had, the the knives were sent to forward areas and "issued" to the troops. I bet someone ended up with a real nice Sears or J C Penny hunting knife and it was "issued" to him. Another example was Liberty Electric assembled parachute kits during WW II and purchased the knives they put in the kits from a knife company, there is no prime record of that knife company and what they supplied anywhere in the military files. When a ship was built it was often locally outfitted, if you go back to the Revolutionary war it was all locally procured. If you count Lewis and Clark as a military expedition they took " Butcher" knives and "Scalping" knives that were listed on their manifest (to date I have never seen one and can not even find a drawing of what one they took with them and have been looking for years. anyone?)

 

So if someone can do it I have a nice bottle with your name on it and I will help you drink it! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frank have you contacted Carlisle reference one of the knives carried on the L&C expedition?  At one time they had the Girardoni rifle as well as a compass (I think) and a knife (?).   They could be at the new Army museum now.  Most of the good contacts I had at Carlisle have left or retired. Regards, CC. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ccyooper said:

Frank have you contacted Carlisle reference one of the knives carried on the L&C expedition?  At one time they had the Girardoni rifle as well as a compass (I think) and a knife (?).   They could be at the new Army museum now.  Most of the good contacts I had at Carlisle have left or retired. Regards, CC. 

    Army Ordnance museum at Fort Lee?  I am here local but have not seen it yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, mruiz said:

    Army Ordnance museum at Fort Lee?  I am here local but have not seen it yet.

No the National Museum of the USA at Fort Belvoir that just opened. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...