ParaOps Posted December 24, 2020 Share #1 Posted December 24, 2020 Hi Gents, Just wanted to confirm when this patch was worn? 1950's? Thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted December 24, 2020 Share #2 Posted December 24, 2020 The ten feather headdress dates to WWII. Of course it could have been worn well into the 1950's. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaOps Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted December 24, 2020 Thanks Allan, much appreciated. I also learnt something with the description of the ten feathers. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted December 24, 2020 Share #4 Posted December 24, 2020 Thanks Allan, never heard that information nugget before concerning 10 feather headdress being WW2,nice to know. Just never thought to count. Mort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otter42 Posted December 24, 2020 Share #5 Posted December 24, 2020 30 minutes ago, mortaydc60 said: Thanks Allan, never heard that information nugget before concerning 10 feather headdress being WW2,nice to know. Just never thought to count. Mort Ditto👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillock Posted December 25, 2020 Share #6 Posted December 25, 2020 OMQC drawing 1944 has 10 feathers on the bonnet. However as we know manufacturers were known to interpret from the drawings,when in the design stage, the sketcher and enlarger could and did make changes to the enlaged cartoon, so you can get variations in feathers, fascial design, OD border etc... Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwestern85 Posted December 25, 2020 Share #7 Posted December 25, 2020 Interesting... so did the official number of feathers change at some point? How many feathers and what year/period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillock Posted December 25, 2020 Share #8 Posted December 25, 2020 The simple answer is no. The amount of feathers changed with each manufacturer over the various years and periods , it is simply a manufacturers "artistic liscense" if there are any changes. I have an interwar 1922-25 period with 9 and differant bonnet and a late 20's-1930's with 10. The late H Ross Fords excellent SSI of the AEF 1918-19 has official AEF drawing of 11 or 12. The known WWI 2ID embroidered Indian Head on star for putting the the various shapes and colours has 12 (on my 2-23-2ID). Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted December 26, 2020 Share #9 Posted December 26, 2020 The Korean War and later examples of the 2nd ID SSI only have 9 feathers and there is no "break" in the middle, like you see on the 10 feather example. This 9 feather model must have been accepted by the Institute of Heraldry as it is the same number of feathers worn on 2nd ID patches today. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillock Posted December 26, 2020 Share #10 Posted December 26, 2020 Hi Allan Below is Dec 1948 was this updated in 1950 to show the change? Did all manufacturers changed to 9 feathers (by changing the tape or having new ones made) from the Korean war or did they use WWII era SSI Yes I have 9 feathers ME re below 2013 superseded 1968 TIOH drawing Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted December 27, 2020 Share #11 Posted December 27, 2020 Phillock, I always appreciate your input in these discussions. I am going off of what I have learned from seeing what was in the hands of veterans over the years. I know that most of the Korean war and later SSIs that I have encountered have been the 9 feather headdress which is what we see in the last drawing that you posted, but I am going to assume that their are at least a couple more drawings in the timeline to take us from 1948 to 2013. I know that the 10 feather headdress patches start to disappear in the KW era, but I am sure the old ones were issued until the stocks were exhausted. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillock Posted December 27, 2020 Share #12 Posted December 27, 2020 Hi Allan Good discussion for sure and thats what this community is all about. I do agree with you and acknowledge your years of experiance in collecting. I had to recheck my collection to find out if I had a 9 feather 2ID, which I do. I have/had grouped my Korean-early 1960's era 2D together. The top row Left has 10 feathers, when you handle the patch it is not have that look and feel of WWII compared to my other WWII era 2ID. It also has that extended twill,typical of 1950's era SSI. Top Row Right has 9 feathers ironically I only put this into Korean based on the edging where I have seen a lot of 50's era washed(?)or used patches not because of the feathers. Bottom row Left 10 feathers embroidered on black twill 1950's Bottom right 9 feathers embroided on Black Twill-1960's cut edge The CAPOZUCA top is a Koreann era Top note embroidered 10 feathers with extended twill ie typical 1950's era SSI, twill not cut back to edge as per WWII. So the manufacturer of this patch would of done a run of thousands using the Dec 1948 drawing or simply the WWII era schiffli embroidered tapes The Bullion Theatre made has 10 feathers so this would of been based on the OQMG drawings. Now I have Subdued SSI from the estate of BG Ed Kitchens Assitant Commander 2ID 1972 with 9 feathers. Incidently he had an outstanding careers which started with 3rd Ranger Bn and was captured at Cisterna and went on to see service in Korea and Vietnam. What we need to see is the drawings from 1950-1955 to see when a changed occured. We agree on WWII era stock piles were used. Point to note there would of been multiple manufacturers bidding for contracts which used the same machines, tapes and people from WWII to the 50's. As a side note the US military was pushed to its limits in 1950,due to demob and troop reductions after WWII. Europe was the main focus , which had a major effect on the Pacific command where most units were understrength by the time the 1950 onslaught from Noth Korea. This might not seem to have any correlation to SSI but in times of expediancy the US military mobilization has to kick into gear and they do what is needed to go to war, so as long as manufacturers could supply SSI, very little would have changed, of which has been documented on the forum. So 9 feathers were produced by some manufacturers during the Korean war whether they follwed new drawings or if manufacturers made the design with 9 feathers and or was it post Korea? So we need to find more info on when, in this case, 9 feathers were introduced. Well Allan at least we will have everyone on the forum counting feathers for the next several days or so. LOL The next discussion will be "well Korean era Indian heads have no black outline mouth feature!!!" And yes I do enjoy these discussions. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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