Consensus on Decals on WW2 Liners / Helmets

[Paddyd00]

Hi Guys - I read through a few post before I posted here which I found out that indeed there were.  I have a bunch of post war decalled Liners (KW through VN) and previously like many thought that this decalling was standard post war stuff and no way were they on WW2. But these ones seem a bit different on a prospective purchase.  The picture of the early Mcccord fixed bail are horrible and I asked for new ones.   But my question is strictly on the decals ...were there WW2 decals often used on these liners in your guys travels and expertise?  These ones seem of simpler of design and (as opposed to the photos and the bad green not the KW glossy it appears) or "sticker" like as KW era ones I have seen.  Everything else checks out on the helmet for me ...there is no liner repaint .... Helmet seems repainted but from WW2 period. Let me know your thoughts on this issue and its very much appreciated.

Best

Zach

[Bugme]

Officially, WWII ended Sept. 2nd, 1945. However, the term WWII era has a far different meaning with some collectors using the word "era" to apply to occupation forces up to and sometimes passing 1947. 

 

The reason I say this is that before wars end in September of 45, there is not proof of decals, contrary to opposing opinions. By the end of the "era" 1947, there were a great deal of decals being used. The earliest were the "Constabulary: decals which were made in Germany.

[Paddyd00]

31 minutes ago, Bugme said:

Officially, WWII ended Sept. 2nd, 1945. However, the term WWII era has a far different meaning with some collectors using the word "era" to apply to occupation forces up to and sometimes passing 1947. 

 

The reason I say this is that before wars end in September of 45, there is not proof of decals, contrary to opposing opinions. By the end of the "era" 1947, there were a great deal of decals being used. The earliest were the "Constabulary: decals which were made in Germany.

Got it ... So safe to assume these are NOT warrtime issue.  Thank you for the clarification and happy holidays

Z

[B24AT6]

43 minutes ago, Bugme said:

Officially, WWII ended Sept. 2nd, 1945. However, the term WWII era has a far different meaning with some collectors using the word "era" to apply to occupation forces up to and sometimes passing 1947. 

 

The reason I say this is that before wars end in September of 45, there is not proof of decals, contrary to opposing opinions. By the end of the "era" 1947, there were a great deal of decals being used. The earliest were the "Constabulary: decals which were made in Germany.

Scott,

 

Not to muddy the waters any, but where would the 8th Infantry decals fall into this timeline? I believe the Division was deactivated in 1945 and didn’t come back until 1950.

 

Austin

[hardstripe]

Helmet liner decals became widespread in the Post-WWII era. The practice caught on and led to the Army requiring marking of helmet liners.

 

Excerpt from 1959 edition of AR 670-5:

 

     Painting of helmet liners and applying decals was once required by regulation. Enlisted soldiers were required to wear insignia of grade on the helmet liners as described in the 1959 edition of AR 670-5:

 

Only the insignia prescribed below will be placed on the helmet or helmet liner (Except for special safety or training requirements, the only authorized color for helmets and helmet liners is Army shade No. OG 107).

 

a.    Insignia of grade without background, of black color, 2 inches in width.

b.    Optional replica of authorized distinctive and/or shoulder sleeve insignia, either painted or decalmania, placed in positions approximately over the ears. When both insignia are worn, the shoulder sleeve insignia is place on the left side; the distinctive insignia is placed on the right side of helmet or helmet liner."

 

The above is an excerpt from an article I wrote for the ASMIC Trading Post that appeared in the Oct-Dec 2012 edition. ASMIC members can access this article from the ASMIC Website. Every issue of the Trading Post from 1938 to the latest issue has been digitized and indexed.

 

This practice continued to be required by AR 670-5 until adoption of the Kevlar helmet in the early 1980's. Incidentally, the practice continued but small embroidered helmet patches were sewn on the sides of the BDU helmet covers.  Embroidered or metal insignia of grade were also required on the BDU covers. This practice was changed by the 1987 edition of AR 670-1 as follows:

 

f. Helmet liner and helmet camouflage cover. Only the insignia prescribed below will be placed on the helmet liner or helmet camouflage cover. The color of the helmet will not be altered except for safety or training requirements.

(I) All personnel All personnel may wear subdued insignia of grade centered on the front of the camouflage cover approximately 2 1/2 inches up from the bottom rim. Subdued pin on or embroidered sew-on insignia of grade may be worn on the camouflage cover. Embroidered insignia cannot be required unless it is issued and attached without cost to the enlisted soldier. Chaplains will wear their subdued insignia of branch in lieu of insignia of grade. 

 

 

 

[Bugme]

25 minutes ago, B24AT6 said:

Scott,

Not to muddy the waters any, but where would the 8th Infantry decals fall into this timeline? I believe the Division was deactivated in 1945 and didn’t come back until 1950.

Austin

Austin, you make a good point about the 8th. While September 4th was the end of all WWII hostilities, the actual war in Germany ended on May 7th, 1945. We know that the 8th started using decals in 1945 but the question is: before or after May 7th? This is where the words "era" come into play. As you said, it is muddy water. 

 

In my opinion, any decal in the WWII era, first showed up at or after the end of hostilities in Europe.

[B24AT6]

6 minutes ago, Bugme said:

Austin, you make a good point about the 8th. While September 4th was the end of all WWII hostilities, the actual war in Germany ended on May 7th, 1945. We know that the 8th started using decals in 1945 but the question is: before or after May 7th? This is where the words "era" come into play. As you said, it is muddy water. 

 

In my opinion, any decal in the WWII era, first showed up at or after the end of hostilities in Europe.

I definitely agree there, the construction of the 8th decals is very similar to German helmet decals so it would seem the most likely that they were made in Germany following V-E Day.

 

For the most part they seem to be an exception to the rule until the Constabulary in 1947 as you said.

 

 

[Lucky 7th Armored]

I’m a little late, but the 7th Armored Division had decals on their liners in May 1945 which supports what some have already said. Here are two photos from my collection.

[B24AT6]

17 minutes ago, Lucky 7th Armored said:

I’m a little late, but the 7th Armored Division had decals on their liners in May 1945 which supports what some have already said. Here are two photos from my collection.

The Armored divisions are another interesting caveat, they did adopt “decals” during the war, but for the most part they were paper that was glued or shellaced on to the shells or liners. The 3rd Armored used the armored insignia and their “Spearhead” logo pretty frequently as shown in the first photo and then I also included a 20th Armored liner from my collection where you can really see the paper decal.

 

[Lucky 7th Armored]

The Armored divisions are another interesting caveat, they did adopt “decals” during the war, but for the most part they were paper that was glued or shellaced on to the shells or liners. The 3rd Armored used the armored insignia and their “Spearhead” logo pretty frequently as shown in the first photo and then I also included a 20th Armored liner from my collection where you can really see the paper decal.
 

Wow that is an amazing liner! I forgot I had saved these photos of another 7th AD set with a period photo. Not sure if that is paper/shellac like you mentioned though.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[B24AT6]

26 minutes ago, Lucky 7th Armored said:

 

 

Wow that is an amazing liner! I forgot I had saved these photos of another 7th AD set with a period photo. Not sure if that is paper/shellac like you mentioned though.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Thank you! That one also appears to be paper, you can make out a where the edge is slightly raised especially on the left side of the decal.
 

I really love the period photos, thank you for sharing them.

[jmd62]

Great examples! Here's one I have that came from the family of the Vet with a couple of paper items that match the liner's laundry code naturally. 

[Paddyd00]

Hmm ... so a couple of Caveats going down here.  Great period pics .... thanks for sharing and the Armored Liners are awesome as well.  Sweet!

Z

[drown1981]

Here some 6th armored division men with decals on their liners. This photo was taken in the summer of 1945. The division was deactivated September 20, 1945

 

 

[tredhed2]

Since the Constab was mentioned, here is a strip of liner decals for the 24th Constab Sq; the vet I obtained them from was w/ the 24th from beginning to end. Unfortunately, he folded every strip in half so the center decal has a fold through it and/or the decal is cracked.

 

They were printed by Carl Schimpf K.G. Abziehbilder Fabrik im Nurnberg.

 

 

[thorin6]

Is there a difference between decals, and paper insignia that were shellaced on liners/shells?

[Edelweisse]

Hi: In early 1990s, I purchased some items from an estate auction of an 86th Infantry Div medical officer in the Boston area.  In the group was a sheet of 86th ID Blackhawk decals.  Years later, an individual (Perry Floyd) posted a medic helmet on the “Wehrmacht Award” forum which belonged to a medic in the 86th ID and the liner had the same decal.  I was able to assist in ID’ing the soldier and providing the name and address of the soldier based upon the roster.  The same address where the helmet was found.

 

Getting back to decals....I think that they were used based upon the sheet I found and the existing medic helmet.  The 86th ID served in ETO from March 1945 thru May 1945...and then back to CONUS for deployment into the PTO ending up in the Philippines until 1946.  My Father served in the 341st Inf Reg, 86th ID In both theaters.

[B24AT6]

6 hours ago, thorin6 said:

Is there a difference between decals, and paper insignia that were shellaced on liners/shells?

 

Yes, there is a difference, especially when it comes to figuring out when a helmet was used.

 

When most people are talking about decals they are talking about the "water slide/transfer" type that are not dissimilar from what you would find with most model kits. These are the decals seen the most often and 99% of them are going to originate from the Late 40s into the 50s and 60s, with a very small number being observed appearing in perhaps the last days of WWII into the very early Occupation period.  Because of the discoloration of the transfer film that actually adheres the decal, this 50s era liner shows pretty well their construction. you can also see how these did not adhere well in areas that caused parts of the decal to be raised.

 

 

Paper "Decals" are not really decals in the same sense because they require some kind of lacquer or shellac to attach to the helmet and are usually cut out of a larger printed sheet. The paper insignia was not the most common method of applying insignia in WWII, but a number of units can be seen using them in period photos (Armored divisions especially). This method of marking helmets also does not seemed to have had much popularity past the WWII period with the widespread adoption of the water transfer decals. Your 2nd ID liner is one I would feel comfortable calling WWII era at the least and very well could have been done during war time. I have a similarly marked helmet myself and consider it to be from the Late War/Occupation timeframe.

 

Here is another helmet from my collection that has paper insignia, and you can see really well on the shell that it has dimension you don't see with decals. You can also see how these were more prone to peeling off over time versus the decals that would flake. On the liner the rank insignia is in better condition,  however it has lost an armored insignia that was on the side. I have not ID'ed this helmet by it is my opinion that it is entirely WWII used.

 

 

[thorin6]

B24AT6,

Thanks for your explanation.  On my 2nd ID liner the rank is painted on and the insignia and rank are shellaced.  The rank is 1st Lieutenant, but the shellac has turned it yellow.  The liner (and leather chin strap) is WW2 but these liners were used for several years after WW2 so that isn't really definitive.  

[B24AT6]

6 minutes ago, thorin6 said:

B24AT6,

Thanks for your explanation.  On my 2nd ID liner the rank is painted on and the insignia and rank are shellaced.  The rank is 1st Lieutenant, but the shellac has turned it yellow.  The liner (and leather chin strap) is WW2 but these liners were used for several years after WW2 so that isn't really definitive.  

 

In the case of your particular liner, more than anything, the reason I would call it WWII era is that it appears to be the original factory paint. In my opinion this is a very strong indicator of WWII use.

[Paddyd00]

6 hours ago, B24AT6 said:

 

Yes, there is a difference, especially when it comes to figuring out when a helmet was used.

 

When most people are talking about decals they are talking about the "water slide/transfer" type that are not dissimilar from what you would find with most model kits. These are the decals seen the most often and 99% of them are going to originate from the Late 40s into the 50s and 60s, with a very small number being observed appearing in perhaps the last days of WWII into the very early Occupation period.  Because of the discoloration of the transfer film that actually adheres the decal, this 50s era liner shows pretty well their construction. you can also see how these did not adhere well in areas that caused parts of the decal to be raised.

 

 

Paper "Decals" are not really decals in the same sense because they require some kind of lacquer or shellac to attach to the helmet and are usually cut out of a larger printed sheet. The paper insignia was not the most common method of applying insignia in WWII, but a number of units can be seen using them in period photos (Armored divisions especially). This method of marking helmets also does not seemed to have had much popularity past the WWII period with the widespread adoption of the water transfer decals. Your 2nd ID liner is one I would feel comfortable calling WWII era at the least and very well could have been done during war time. I have a similarly marked helmet myself and consider it to be from the Late War/Occupation timeframe.

 

Here is another helmet from my collection that has paper insignia, and you can see really well on the shell that it has dimension you don't see with decals. You can also see how these were more prone to peeling off over time versus the decals that would flake. On the liner the rank insignia is in better condition,  however it has lost an armored insignia that was on the side. I have not ID'ed this helmet by it is my opinion that it is entirely WWII used.

 

 

This is one Doozy of an M1 helmet. Wow 

[Paddyd00]

6 hours ago, B24AT6 said:

 

Yes, there is a difference, especially when it comes to figuring out when a helmet was used.

 

When most people are talking about decals they are talking about the "water slide/transfer" type that are not dissimilar from what you would find with most model kits. These are the decals seen the most often and 99% of them are going to originate from the Late 40s into the 50s and 60s, with a very small number being observed appearing in perhaps the last days of WWII into the very early Occupation period.  Because of the discoloration of the transfer film that actually adheres the decal, this 50s era liner shows pretty well their construction. you can also see how these did not adhere well in areas that caused parts of the decal to be raised.

 

 

Paper "Decals" are not really decals in the same sense because they require some kind of lacquer or shellac to attach to the helmet and are usually cut out of a larger printed sheet. The paper insignia was not the most common method of applying insignia in WWII, but a number of units can be seen using them in period photos (Armored divisions especially). This method of marking helmets also does not seemed to have had much popularity past the WWII period with the widespread adoption of the water transfer decals. Your 2nd ID liner is one I would feel comfortable calling WWII era at the least and very well could have been done during war time. I have a similarly marked helmet myself and consider it to be from the Late War/Occupation timeframe.

 

Here is another helmet from my collection that has paper insignia, and you can see really well on the shell that it has dimension you don't see with decals. You can also see how these were more prone to peeling off over time versus the decals that would flake. On the liner the rank insignia is in better condition,  however it has lost an armored insignia that was on the side. I have not ID'ed this helmet by it is my opinion that it is entirely WWII used.

 

 

This is one Doozy of an M1 helmet. Wow 

[manayunkman]

This one is from the Detroit historical museum.

 

All paper.

[USdecals283838]

 Hello I am new to this I recently came across this Beautiful M1 helmet liner with a mysterious unknown decal maybe Someone Will know what I don’t know

[USdecals283838]

hello as I said again I am new to this but if anyone else is decal reply to me thank you for your time