Brian Keith Posted December 17, 2020 Share #1 Posted December 17, 2020 A museum I’m associated with recently had donated this M1905 Bayonet for the M1903 Rifle. It is dated 1909, made by Rock Island Arsenal, SN 165610. The bayonet is in average condition and probably was Parkerized in a rebuild/refinish program post WW I, but the scabbard caught my interest. It is a relatively early leather covered scabbard. I noticed it is marked on the back, “R.I.A/ 1907/H.E.K.” and on the front, “R.I.A/ 1921”. I thought it odd it was dated twice. Looking at my Cunningham bayonet book, I see he describes the “Modified Model 1905 Scabbard, Type Three” that updated the earlier scabbards with the M1910 belt hooks. Cunningham doesn’t mention the addition date markings, but I am sure that it was applied when it was modified/updated to the M1910 belt hooks. This bayonet at this point has no veteran history attached to it. The family wasn’t sure who it came from, but it is associated with a 38th Infantry Division packing chest of the 1920’s-‘30’s era. Thanks for looking, comments welcome. BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted December 17, 2020 Share #2 Posted December 17, 2020 That's a really nice Model of 1905 bayonet and 1905 modified scabbard. You are right about the dates. The date on the body of the scabbard is the original date and the date on the upper leather piece (which was added as a part of the modification) is the date it was modified. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Keith Posted December 17, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted December 17, 2020 Thank-You Sir for your information/conformation! BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinb Posted December 17, 2020 Share #4 Posted December 17, 2020 I can't add anything to the discussion other than I have one just like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted December 17, 2020 Share #5 Posted December 17, 2020 They say that the modifications of the 1905 scabbard continued into the 1920s, but 1921 is the latest date that I have seen. I'd be interested what the last date for this mod is. One thing about this scabbard that no one on the forums or in books ever discusses, is the leather tip cover. This cover is not seen until 1920, (at least in my observation). I would like to hear some input on that. Show 'em if you got 'em. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Keith Posted December 17, 2020 Author Share #6 Posted December 17, 2020 Excellent observation Marv-my Cunningham book is not at my fingertips right now, but I think your correct he dosn't seem to mention the tips. I do not have any earlier examples and I don't think the museum does either. I don't really study this early of bayonet typically, so when I saw it, in my ingorance, I would have said it was a pre-WW I bayonet. While, I guess it is still somewhat correct to say it is a pre-WW I bayonet, I now know that is was rearsenaled in the post WW I era. 35+ years ago I had a 1920 dated one in the 1910 scabbard and I thought at the time, why would they make a new bayonet in 1920, when they had all the left overs from WW I? I suppose the simple answer is to keep the skill set and tooling in good order. Production numbers were probably not high in that era. Looking back, I should have kept that one. Thanks to all who have commented. I'm learning! BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWS Posted December 17, 2020 Share #7 Posted December 17, 2020 At one time I had 6 of the modified scabbards and none had the modification date on them. The tip on your scabbard is very interesting but none of the bayonet books ( including Cunningham's) mention this. Ironically, the tip of the experimental aluminum bodied scabbard was smaller than the rest of the scabbard body, while the tip on this one is larger! While I had Gary's book out, the m-1905 was made until 1922( 4000 made) at Springfield Armory and 1919 or 1920 at R.I.A.. The last year that M-1903 Mk. 1 rifles were made at Springfield was 1921. Any correlation??? Brian, could you take a more close-up of both sides of the tip area? Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Keith Posted December 17, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted December 17, 2020 Hello Steve, I can probably make a few photo's of the tip this evening. I suspect it is larger because it goes over the existing leather of the scabbard. BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Keith Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted December 18, 2020 Here are photos of the leather tip. The side with the drain grommet is the back. BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWS Posted December 18, 2020 Share #10 Posted December 18, 2020 Thanks for the photos Brian. I haven't ever seen one of these before. I have seen quite a few of the pre-1910 scabbards with minor to severe tip damage and even breakage over the years, so this was a solution to that problem back in the day. I wonder if there was a repair procedure written down somewhere at R.I.A. ? Was this tip repair done at the same time as the hanger modification? Interesting post and very nice photos! Thanks Brian. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marysdad Posted December 18, 2020 Share #11 Posted December 18, 2020 1921 was the year that RIA closed it's Harness Shop, which then relocated to the Jeffersonville Quartermaster Depot in Indiana. This alteration must have been among the last jobs they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted December 18, 2020 Share #12 Posted December 18, 2020 Just checked my inventory records, I also have a modified scabbard with original RIA dtd 1907 inspected by EEB, and RIA dtd 1921 inspected by SEL. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Keith Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share #13 Posted December 18, 2020 I'm glad this has been an interesting subject. I wonder if the leather tip was only done if the tip had damage when the M-1910 belt hanger was added. That would explain why it is not on some of these modified examples. It is quality work. It is also possible, that it was done on a more local unit evel, Units that had horses (cavalery, artillery, supply) had saddlers (leatherworkers) who had the skill set to do this type of work. Likely, shoemakers (cobblers) could also. Marysdad, interesting observation, Thanks! Skip, does yours have the leather tip addition? Best Regards, BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted December 18, 2020 Share #14 Posted December 18, 2020 Mine does not have the leather tip. Have some pics hopefully I can post. Will also ad 1st and 2nd model scabbards. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWS Posted December 19, 2020 Share #15 Posted December 19, 2020 Nice to see the first pattern scabbard there at the bottom. Not many of those come up anymore. Nice group of M-1905's. Does anyone know when the experimental aluminum bodied scabbards were made? I have one and have seen 2 others but none are dated or arsenally marked. Pre-1910 for sure, but other than that, I can't find when they were made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted December 19, 2020 Share #16 Posted December 19, 2020 GWS- Actually the pic reversed itself when I down loaded it from my files. I have never seen the aluminum bodied M1905 anywhere except in books. According to Gary Cunningham the aluminum scabbards were an experiment in 1909. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyrax222 Posted December 22, 2020 Share #17 Posted December 22, 2020 Any leather M1905 scabbard in excellent condition is a rarity! Thanks to all who posted. Furthers my education... hyrax222 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted December 27, 2020 Share #18 Posted December 27, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 4:47 PM, GWS said: Nice to see the first pattern scabbard there at the bottom. Not many of those come up anymore. Nice group of M-1905's. Does anyone know when the experimental aluminum bodied scabbards were made? I have one and have seen 2 others but none are dated or arsenally marked. Pre-1910 for sure, but other than that, I can't find when they were made. GWS, When I saw your post, I did not notice that you asked WHEN the aluminum scabbards were made. According to Gary Cunningham's information, the program to test these began in 1908. Just recently, a beautiful aluminum scabbard with a nice 1908 bayonet sold on ebay for $620. A little too much for me, but I thought it would go for closer to $1000. 193778702496 Look under "sold" listings in Advanced search. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWS Posted December 27, 2020 Share #19 Posted December 27, 2020 Misfit 45---Thanks for posting this, looks like someone got an excellent deal as that scabbard is extremely nice! I too would have thought it would be higher $$ than that. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted December 29, 2020 Share #20 Posted December 29, 2020 Hey Skip, Is this an optical illusion, or are the three bottom scabbards different lengths, by a lot. The two in the middle have the cross guards of the bayonets pretty much even yet one of them is about 1 inch shorter than the other. If the type I scabbard were moved back to be even with the type II scabbards, it would be almost another inch shorter than the rest. If the modified scabbard on top were to be pushed even with the two type IIs, it would be longer than all of them. Can't be true, can it? Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinb Posted December 29, 2020 Share #21 Posted December 29, 2020 It's a distorted photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKIPH Posted December 30, 2020 Share #22 Posted December 30, 2020 LOL! Marv- When I took the picture I was not standing directly above the bayonets, plus for some reason or other when I posted here the pictures reversed, putting the top one on the bottom. (Note the tags are upside down) Just an example of my photo expertise. May also have to do with the fact that the early M1905 has the shorter throat by an 1 1/4 " . Don't have time to take out of the safe and measure right now. SKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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