MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Share #1 Posted December 11, 2020 May be a dumb question but if a marine division was awarded a PUC for Iwo Jima, did all marines in that division get to wear the PUC even if they didn’t participate or was it only the marines that were there? Same question on the MUC and NUC? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeclown Posted December 11, 2020 Share #2 Posted December 11, 2020 I would venture to say yes since it was a Unit Citation not individual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted December 11, 2020 I would venture to say yes since it was a Unit Citation not individualOk thanks for the reply. I’ve been researching uniforms and wondering what ribbons I need to restore. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #4 Posted December 11, 2020 One more question, if a guy was serving in one division and transferred to another, would he still wear PUC,NUC,MUC from the previous division? Thanks for the helpSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Crow 1986 Posted December 11, 2020 Share #5 Posted December 11, 2020 33 minutes ago, MT247 said: if a guy was serving in one division and transferred to another, would he still wear PUC,NUC,MUC from the previous division? One word answer - YES. Two sentence answer - IF the individual was a member of the organization ORIGINALLY awarded a unit citation that individual wears the unit citation for the rest of their career. In other words, the person has earned a SHARE of the unit award and the honor transfers with them regardless of future organizational assignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #6 Posted December 11, 2020 One word answer - YES. Two sentence answer - IF the individual was a member of the organization ORIGINALLY awarded a unit citation that individual wears the unit citation for the rest of their career. In other words, the person has earned a SHARE of the unit award and the honor transfers with them regardless of future organizational assignment. Thanks for the answer. I am looking into these records more and am now confused again. If I were to restore ribbons on a uniform would I use the awards earned by the division that the marine was attached to or the regiment they were attached to or both. This person served with the 9th marine regiment, 3rd marine division. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Crow 1986 Posted December 11, 2020 Share #7 Posted December 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, MT247 said: If I were to restore ribbons on a uniform would I use the awards earned by the division that the marine was attached to or the regiment they were attached to or both. This person served with the 9th marine regiment, 3rd marine division. Depends on two factors: 1) What organization earned the unit citation? The PUCs I've seen are rather specific in defining what unit and what SUBORDINATE units are included in the award. Try and get a copy of the 3rd Marine Division PUC GO or the citation itself. THE GO will DEFINITELY list what units are awarded the PUC. I've personally never seen a PUC that didn't specifically call out subordinate units that share in the award. That is, I've never seen one that simply said "101st Airborne" of "TAFFY 3". That is painting with a very broad brush and diminishes the prestige of the award. Chances are the GO will read something like : "By order of the President of the United States the 3rd Marine Division ...having distinguished itself in combat during the Iwo Jima Campaign during the period 19 February 1945 to 26 March 1945...is awarded the Presidential Unit Citation....The following subordinate units will share in this award....21 Marine Regiment...9th Marine Regiment...3rd Tank Battalion...(and so on)." The GO is the key factor in deciding the WHO (all 3rd Division personnel (possible, but not likely) ?...or...only those assigned to the listed subordinate regiment/units (more likely)?) and WHEN (date of action defining the award). 2) What organization was your Marine assigned during the dates of the award? All the info provided indicates that your man was part of the 9th Regiment, 3rd Marines during the Iwo campaign, that is, 19 Feb-26 Mar 45. Therefore, he earned a share of any unit award earned by 9th. I find it darn near impossible to believe that the 9th would not be included in any 3rd Marines unit award for Iwo...but...if it ain't on the GO....then it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted December 11, 2020 Depends on two factors: 1) What organization earned the unit citation? The PUCs I've seen are rather specific in defining what unit and what SUBORDINATE units are included in the award. Try and get a copy of the 3rd Marine Division PUC GO or the citation itself. THE GO will DEFINITELY list what units are awarded the PUC. I've personally never seen a PUC that didn't specifically call out subordinate units that share in the award. That is, I've never seen one that simply said "101st Airborne" of "TAFFY 3". That is painting with a very broad brush and diminishes the prestige of the award. Chances are the GO will read something like : "By order of the President of the United States the 3rd Marine Division ...having distinguished itself in combat during the Iwo Jima Campaign during the period 19 February 1945 to 26 March 1945...is awarded the Presidential Unit Citation....The following subordinate units will share in this award....21 Marine Regiment...9th Marine Regiment...3rd Tank Battalion...(and so on)." The GO is the key factor in deciding the WHO (all 3rd Division personnel (possible, but not likely) ?...or...only those assigned to the listed subordinate regiment/units (more likely)?) and WHEN (date of action defining the award). 2) What organization was your Marine assigned during the dates of the award? All the info provided indicates that your man was part of the 9th Regiment, 3rd Marines during the Iwo campaign, that is, 19 Feb-26 Mar 45. Therefore, he earned a share of any unit award earned by 9th. I find it darn near impossible to believe that the 9th would not be included in any 3rd Marines unit award for Iwo...but...if it ain't on the GO....then it didn't happen. Ok thanks for the info, sounds like I have some more digging to do. Do you know where I could obtain the GO from?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Crow 1986 Posted December 11, 2020 Share #9 Posted December 11, 2020 Found it! Source - https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/n/navy-mc-awards-manual-rev1953/pt2-unit-awards.html Couple of things: 1) The 9th regiment, in its entirety, was awarded the PUC for Iwo...19-28 Feb 45. Notice the rather narrow timeframe of the award period. It is NOT the entire Iwo campaign. 2) Notice the detail and specificity of the list (e.g. "Headquarters Battalion, Fourth Marine Division" NOT Fourth Marine Division. Also, "Pilots and Air Observers, Marine Observation Squadron 1" NOT Marine Observation Squadron 1 - to include maintenance personnel, clerks, supply specialists, etc.) Long story short: Was you Marine assigned to the 9th Infantry Regiment during the period 19-28 Feb 1945? Yes - Earned a share of the unit's PUC and entitled to wear it for the rest of his career No - Not entitled to the award Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #10 Posted December 11, 2020 Found it! Source - https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/n/navy-mc-awards-manual-rev1953/pt2-unit-awards.html Couple of things: 1) The 9th regiment, in its entirety, was awarded the PUC for Iwo...19-28 Feb 45. Notice the rather narrow timeframe of the award period. It is NOT the entire Iwo campaign. 2) Notice the detail and specificity of the list (e.g. "Headquarters Battalion, Fourth Marine Division" NOT Fourth Marine Division. Also, "Pilots and Air Observers, Marine Observation Squadron 1" NOT Marine Observation Squadron 1 - to include maintenance personnel, clerks, supply specialists, etc.) Long story short: Was you Marine assigned to the 9th Infantry Regiment during the period 19-28 Feb 1945? Yes - Earned a share of the unit's PUC and entitled to wear it for the rest of his career No - Not entitled to the award He was with the 9th marines Nov 1, 1943 fighting in Bougainville and July 21, 1944 fighting on Guam where he was wounded. He was with them until dec of 1944Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Crow 1986 Posted December 11, 2020 Share #11 Posted December 11, 2020 BTW - The reference above is not the GO. But the information is extracted from the GO and it comes from an authoritative source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #12 Posted December 11, 2020 BTW - The reference above is not the GO. But the information is extracted from the GO and it comes from an authoritative source.So it looks like he would have not been awarded the PUC because he was out before the Iwo campaign Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #13 Posted December 11, 2020 BTW - The reference above is not the GO. But the information is extracted from the GO and it comes from an authoritative source.On another note, am I reading this correctly, would the entire first marine division be awarded the PUC for Peleliu or just the units under that or both? Sorry for all the follow up questions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Crow 1986 Posted December 11, 2020 Share #14 Posted December 11, 2020 49 minutes ago, MT247 said: So it looks like he would have not been awarded the PUC because he was out before the Iwo campaign Correct, based on the information provided your Marine is not entitled to the 9th Regiment PUC for Iwo. 24 minutes ago, MT247 said: On another note, am I reading this correctly, would the entire first marine division be awarded the PUC for Peleliu or just the units under that or both? Sorry for all the follow up questions. My read (not a personnelist, not a Marine) is that "First Marine Division." means the First Marine Division in its entirety...staff officers, infantrymen, POL specialists, cooks, etc. Followed by all the cats and dogs that made up the "First Marine Division - Reinforced." the Army truckers, the signal guys, etc. Nothing to apologize for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT247 Posted December 11, 2020 Author Share #15 Posted December 11, 2020 My read (not a personnelist, not a Marine) is that "First Marine Division." means the First Marine Division in its entirety...staff officers, infantrymen, POL specialists, cooks, etc. Followed by all the cats and dogs that made up the "First Marine Division - Reinforced." the Army truckers, the signal guys, etc. Nothing to apologize for.Thanks for all your help and teaching me about this. You never stop learning on this hobby. I can now use this info to help with the other marine uniforms I have. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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