Internet "Wooden Gripped" M4.

[SKIPH]

Hey gang! Just found this Camillus "Wooden Gripped" M4 on ebay, item # 303792069533, bidding up to $119.50.  Besides the cool replacement grips, this one has the Ordinance Bomb on both sides of the guard. Never have seen that before. Makes me wonder when that was done, during production or later when grip was added. The piece looks legit to me, especially the wooden grips. Good one for discussion. If anyone could post ad it would be appreciated. THX. SKIP

[aznation]

[SKIPH]

Thanks for posting aznation! If I can ever get my kids back over here I'll have them show me how to download the ads. SKIP

[MattS]

What's the story behind these wood gripped M4s? I assume these grips were meant to replace damaged leather ones.

[SKIPH]

To answer Matt's question these are replacement grips. The theory is they were done in Asia most likely Japan after the leather washers had deteriorated post WW2. Just pulled out my copy, still perfecting photographs w/ phone, but Ordinance Bomb only on one side of the guard. It's a Camillus M4, which based on my observations seems to be the majority with conversions to wood grips. SKIP

[MattS]

Makes sense they were Asian replacements. Seems like South Korea, Japan, and South Vietnam all used carbines for decades. 

[thorin6]

There are pictures of these being used in the Korean War.  In my opinion they were made in Japan under US direction and issued to both US and Allied forces.  I have a picture of a late war Japanese Sword that has the same type handle on it.  There is more information in Gary Cunningham's (RIP) book on US Bayonets.

[SKIPH]

Bill, I agree on Japan, for the same reason. I have a late war M1928 with wooden handle that could have been made by the same guy who did the bayonets. Something to keep in mind was there were a lot of unemployed, skilled  Japanese workers Post War who could have done the handle conversions with little or no training. Makes sense since the US was trying to rebuild their economy.  SKIP

[MattS]

I wasn't real familiar with late war Japanese swords, but after a quick Google search, I see what you mean!

[tarheeltim]

I've been told there are reproduction wooden handles out there on M4's, and that you always want to see a one-piece wooden handle.  If there are seams down both sides of the handle, this would indicate it is two pieces and a reproduction.  Can any of you guys confirm this is accurate?

[Misfit 45]

It would not surprise me that a wood handled M4 reproduction is out there, but I bought this wood handled M4 maybe 25 years ago.  It has a two piece handle made of an unidentified wood.  The M4 itself is a near mint condition Camillus that was not disassembled during the process.  I showed pictures of this one to Gary Cunningham and he did not know what it was.  Anyone can speculate, but no hard evidence has been found.

Marv

[SKIPH]

MattS- Thanks for posting the sword pics, mine looks exactly like those. My Camillus M4 has a solid wooden handle, and the tang is not peened like Marv's. Obviously the pommel was removed and replaced on mine. SKIP

[9th Infantry Manchu]

Hi Guys, I was curious so dug mine out finally. Peened painted pommel, I dont see a seam, and only one proof mark. Still in cosmoline and the original box. Jim

[SKIPH]

Now I'm getting curious. Does anyone have a wood gripped M4 other than Camillus? I also see a lot in the original Camillus boxes on ebay.  SKIP

[MattS]

Can anyone decipher a date from the labelling on the box? I can't tell what's under the tape. 

[9th Infantry Manchu]

1 EA. BAYONET KNIFE M-4

W/SCABBARD M8A1

B1-6702251

[9th Infantry Manchu]

I did a quick internet seach and found similar wood handle Uticas and Imperials. 

[hyrax222]

Love me some flaming onions!

 

hyrax222

[MattS]

1 hour ago, 9th Infantry Manchu said:

1 EA. BAYONET KNIFE M-4

W/SCABBARD M8A1

B1-6702251

 

Thanks, was hoping there was a date in that but I don't see one. 

[schmooser]

Here is my Imperial M4.

[Misfit 45]

Hi Folks,

Not much is known about these wood handles and where they were assembled.  The original story is that they were made in Okinawa or in the Philippines.  Lacking any real evidence, the idea that they were made in Japan is just as plausible, but I believe it's a more recent idea. 

 

As you probably suspect, these M4s had the latch plates removed to place the one piece handle on the tang. However, I believe in at least some cases, the entire M4 was disassembled.  In the case of this wood handled M4, the cross guard is a Kinfolks, but the latch plate is a Utica, as evidenced by the single punch dot.  So, you could have a Camillus blade with a PAL cross guard with a Hemphill latch plate.  Just something to consider.

 

This M4 has a very nice blade, with the cross guard and latch plate being painted....not very well, I might add.  The plastic spacers also look like they were heated.  They have a burnt look. If you're quick enough to notice, Kinfolks M4s do not have plastic spacers. The wood on this M4 is much lighter in color than the usual ones you find.  This M4 obviously has a mixed pedigree.

 

What this may mean is that these wood handled M4s may have been made at different locations, and/or at different times.  

"9th Infantry Manchu" shows a NIB wood handled Camillus.  I have always wondered, "How can this happen?"  My suspicion is that a shipment of Camillus M4s sat in wet damp conditions and when the boxes were opened, the leather was rotten.   The handles were replaced with wood, and then greased up and put back in the boxes, (not necessarily the same boxes). that would be too tedious.  If the whole shipment was made by Camillus, the boxes would all match the bayonets.

 

The scabbard is interesting in that it is a very early M8 with a BN  of  */1  .  It was converted in the mid 50s to the M8A1 configuration.  Notice the large snap button, and that the strap crosses over the opposite direction of the WWII scabbards.

Thanks,

Marv

   

[SKIPH]

This is great!  Really like all the input and hands-on experience with these M4s.  Gary would be proud of us, and be right in the middle of this thread.  SKIP

[9th Infantry Manchu]

Hi Marv, I have also wondered a lot about that box. Same thing ... was it in stores, handle rotted, replaced, back in the box for issue? Whats bothered me with that is the chipboard box would have disintegrated long before the handle would have. My box looks 100% legit, is aged, made and marked right so I dont think its a fake. Also we see plenty of nos M4s in the box with dry but decent handles that survived the years so I dont think the handles, say,  just "failed" from age and were replaced. I have also wondered, and think this a really long shot, if the handles and boxes rotted, replaced handles, and they were returned to stores someplace, say, stateside and matched up with empty boxes from m4s that were already issued? Seems unlikely i think. Jim

[9th Infantry Manchu]

Does anyone have those pics of these in Korea(?) The could post? Ive not seen them before that l recall.

[SKIPH]

Manchu- There's a picture in Gary Cunningham's US bayonet book of Turkish troops with  them. As far as M4 boxes, that's a mystery. I have never seen a unit that would keep empty boxes hanging around for say, years just in case they got repaired bayonets from overseas, or anywhere.  SKIP

Just tried to copy the picture from the book, didn't come out very good. Maybe someone else can do better.