48 Star Flag Question

[T Ambrosini]

Hello all,

 

Is there a difference between the so called 5' x 9.5' "storm flag" and the "interment flag" with the same dimensions, or are they one in the same?  I have one from the PA QM Depot with the heavy metal loops riveted to each end of the hoist.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[Mr.Jerry]

Not really. I think both were used in either application.

[T Ambrosini]

Sorry to sound thick-headed, but two different flag types used interchangeably or the same flag used for both purposes?  

 

Thanks!

Tom

[dhcoleterracina]

The 5 by 9.5 marked flags are internment flags. A Navy #7 is often used for burials at sea and are also dual purpose flags. A question that I have never had a good response about are the heavy iron rings like you describe. What was the purpose of such heavy rings? Often/always riveted. They are used as internment flags too but what again is their purpose? 

[T Ambrosini]

Thanks for the response and that's what I hope to learn as well.  I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that the 5x9.5 flags with the heavy loops riveted into place are "storm flags", which were to be used in inclement weather.  What I don't know is if there was another flag with the same dimensions that was specific for interment use (and used interchangeably).

 

Tom

[Mr.Jerry]

I need to find the regs, but I think there was a camp flag of the same size.

[T Ambrosini]

Mr. J,

 

That would be great if you come up with a definitive answer from the regs; this has puzzled me for some time now.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[dhcoleterracina]

Me too, I'm sure there is a reg out there, I just haven't found it. 

 

There is a macabre video out there showing the process of disinterment from a French cemetery in preparation for returning the soldier home. Hard to watch but in the end you see flag draped caskets lined up. You can clearly see that the flags were those with the heavy riveted rings on all caskets. I also have a 45 or 46 star flag with the heavy rings so they have been in use for a long time. 

 

During a previous discussion it was suggested that these were used for burial at sea. The heavy ring would be easy to hang onto when the body is dropped. Interesting theory but I'd like to see real documentation. 

[T Ambrosini]

I poked around a bit on Google and haven't come up with a WW2 era reg that specifically deals with flag types, not even in the QMC graves regs.  There are several references to modern Army regs, however (and interesting to read as well).  The closest title I have come up with is:

 

Service Flag:  Design and General Rules for Use, Cir 62-1945.

 

I can't locate the actual document, so can't say if this will help at all.  As far as Navy burials at sea, would they use flags that came out of an Army QMC depot?

 

Tom

[dhcoleterracina]

No, you are correct, I don't think that they would use Army QMC flags for burials at sea. My point was that there is a great deal of well intentioned theories but no backing documentation. I'm sure it's out there but I haven't seen it yet.

 

Another sad fact was the need for thousands of internment flags. At some point in WW2, they went outside to private flag makers for these flags. There are internment flags from many different companies that made nice flags with sewn stripes and stars but not these heavy rings that must have taken longer to make. A sad reality meets the need for each family to be presented with a flag by the government. 

 

In yet another thread on this subject, the heavy ring flags are called "storm flags". Seems logical and makes sense except again it is some flag expert opinion with no documentation. The search goes on. 

[tdurbinmas]

The type of heavy riveted rings you picture are pretty common on various military flags. I have quite a few different  DOD and Army positional field flags from the 50’s and 60’s made by PQMD with identical rings and rivets. The rivets are copper. I also have a couple of old USMC flags/pennants with the same style riveted rings including a church pennant and a QM pennant. 

[Blacksmith]

 

[dhcoleterracina]

I had seen this thread before and for me it just repeats what seems logical about the heavy rings. It also may be 100% accurate but this is the army we're talking about, surely there is some obscure reg. out there to confirm the information. That's what I really want to see. In that thread the documentation comes from the Zaricor Flag Collection or Museum. They have a similar flag in their collection and the info is in the description. They also have a simple two grommet internment flag that they also call "storm flag". I know the information is out there. 

[T Ambrosini]

Blacksmith,

 

Thanks for linking these threads. 

 

I'm still looking around to see if I can find something definitive in the regs, QM catalogues, etc, that gives a specific name and/or purpose to these flag(s). 

 

The one I have is typical of the ones shown in the other thread.

 

Tom

 

[Blacksmith]

4 hours ago, T Ambrosini said:

Blacksmith,

 

Thanks for linking these threads. 

 

I'm still looking around to see if I can find something definitive in the regs, QM catalogues, etc, that gives a specific name and/or purpose to these flag(s). 

 

The one I have is typical of the ones shown in the other thread.

 

Tom

 

You are welcome Tom.  :)