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SKIPH

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Hey Gang! Just found this Camillus Blade marked M3, w/ M6 scabbard on ebay touted as a WW2. Item # 293853760050. Bids currently at $132. New guys study this one, it's been altered to fool people. If someone could post the ad it would be appreciated. Let's see who can catch all the flaws.  SKIP

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Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:
 

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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Milsco M6 with the large ordnance bomb is a reproduction.  Camillus marked blade with the incorrect style "M" font is a modern version.  Tone of leather on the handle looks like it's been replaced.  Must have used an original 2 pin pommel when putting it back together.  Deceptive all the way around!

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Aznation- Thanks for posting!  Tim- My thoughts on the 2 pinned pommel are the same, and the replaced handle. Most assuredly a repro disguised/ modified to look original. Stay on top of your game!  SKIP

 

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I don't think that much work went into fauxing the hilt of that M3.  I'll bet the pommel is the one that came with the knife in the 90's, just clamped on a drill press and an extra hole put in.  From the leather work that I've done myself that handle looks like it got burnished to smooth out the ruff look of the repro Camillus handles and possibly nothing more than some Ox blood colored shoe polish on top. Maybe they did more work than that, but it wouldn't surprise me if they hadn't.

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i looked hard at the 2 pins. Generally when someone adds a second one, they are off to one side or the other, remember the single pin on a Camillus repro, is centered on the pommel. These look evenly spaced in the photos to me. Could be wrong, the pic in the scabbard does look like it is off. Either way, it;s gonna be an expensive repro for someone.  SKIP

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You make a good point about the pin location SKIP.  I don't have nearly as many M3's as you do and among them aren't any of the reproductions.  It would take a number of the 90's knives to get a good sense of how consistent the pins were drilled to the center line.  It would be reasonable to assume the process would likely be more automated by that time than it was nearly 50 years earlier.

Here's a close up of the pins on my blade dated Camillus.  Running a straight edge across the top of the pommel in line with the pins the holes look to be closely offset with the center of the tang.

 

1915686102_CamillusM3bladedatedpommel.jpg.f809de686e8f97bdfa96fe135ecf6e66.jpg

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sactroop- Here is a photo of my Camillus repro blade marked. Note the pin location. Also note that the leather washers behind the guard are not flattened smooth, but still round. Handle was replaced on the questionable repro. SKIP

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FWIW-Here is the real deal ebay item # 124424476483, with a Buy Now price of $299.99. Big difference. If someone could post ad, again it would be appreciated. SKIP

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Skip, did you check out the Camillus M4 the same seller is offering?  It's the later (or modern) version with the crossguard that's wider in the middle.  The blade is super nice, but the handle is sort of ratty, and doesn't look like the typical Camillus handle.  Leads me to believe the handle was replaced with older leather from another knife/bayonet to make it look more WWII vintage.  What do you think?

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Tim- Just checked it out. Agree the leather is pretty rough. But, what makes no sense to me is how the pommel is attached like an original, "peened", all the repro ones I have seen are not. The tang comes through different, not peened the same, and is smooth. The "x" is correct, along with the pommel for a 1953 Camillus M4 contract. Finish, not quite sure of, too much hassle to dig my 1953 out of the safe right now. but, I think it's from the 1953 contract.  SKIP

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Here's one to add to the repro pile. Ebay item # 293868795858. Same thing, Camillus blade marked, w/ decent original M8 scabbard. Seller addresses the single pommel pin. "Early war 1 pin attachment w/ flaming bomb stamp". I interpret this as intentional deception.  Where did he get that information?  SKIP

 

Looks like the ad was pulled.

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On 11/25/2020 at 4:37 PM, sactroop said:

You make a good point about the pin location SKIP.  I don't have nearly as many M3's as you do and among them aren't any of the reproductions.  It would take a number of the 90's knives to get a good sense of how consistent the pins were drilled to the center line.  It would be reasonable to assume the process would likely be more automated by that time than it was nearly 50 years earlier.

Here's a close up of the pins on my blade dated Camillus.  Running a straight edge across the top of the pommel in line with the pins the holes look to be closely offset with the center of the tang.

 

1915686102_CamillusM3bladedatedpommel.jpg.f809de686e8f97bdfa96fe135ecf6e66.jpg

I'm the guy that put new washers on the M3. The washers were dry rotted from  long storage and I did the work for the lady. On the M6 scabbard I know nothing about it, but the knife is real.

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My work. Degrease and bead the metal, hot blued the blade, put new washers on, shaped and cut the grooves, dyed the leather, melted 8 coats of beeswax into the leather and then coated with saddle lacquer. 

 

I put the washers on wet, use clear Gorilla glue, then compress fhe leather. Let the dry overnight and then rough shape with a belt sander and detail it with a dremel tool 

 

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Marty- Welcome to the forum!  Thank you for chiming in, your photographs make it a lot clearer on whether the knife is a repro or not.  Your restoration work is excellent.  It would be greatly appreciated if you could do a thread on the whole restoration process you use. I think it would be very informative for everyone, and I suspect you could drum up a little extra restoration business . Again, thanks for the pics, and information.  SKIP

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I may just do that. No hidden secrets in restoring old knives/bayonets, just patience. I hate working on Camillus M3s with those freaking pins. I let it soak in white vinegar overnight. Then soak in WD-40. I let that soak in for a couple of hours and slowing tap the pins out. If they don't break free I let them soak some more. The pommel is a softer steel and it doesn't take much to destroy it and the value if the knife. When buying Camillus M3s I look for the 2 pins and ordnance mark. If I don't see that then I know it a Camillus reproduction. 

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On 11/25/2020 at 7:37 PM, sactroop said:

I don't think that much work went into fauxing the hilt of that M3.  I'll bet the pommel is the one that came with the knife in the 90's, just clamped on a drill press and an extra hole put in.  From the leather work that I've done myself that handle looks like it got burnished to smooth out the ruff look of the repro Camillus handles and possibly nothing more than some Ox blood colored shoe polish on top. Maybe they did more work than that, but it wouldn't surprise me if they hadn't.

 

Agreed: The work @ "deception" is lazy but, sadly, will likely yield a pile of dough for the seller.

 

If more collectors (and others) availed themselves of the material presented by such yourself, @SKIPH@doyler  and the many others who help us to learn more about militaria, then perhaps the market for producing and pushing faked items would diminish. But alas... Anyway, there are folks out here -- I am one of them -- who appreciate very much the opinions and scrutiny such folks bring to these forums.

 

- edwin

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10 hours ago, Marty said:

A real fake. Can you see all the mistakes? The M6 is real. https://www.ebay.com/itm/363209021483

 

Nope, and that's why I don't buy M3s anymore. The demand seems to have exceeded the number of originals available for sale and I can't keep up with identifying fakes/restorations. 

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2 hours ago, Marty said:

Your very smart, Matt! Save your money and spend it wisely. Wayw

 

That and I have 2 teens at home, with one in college, so spending hundreds on knives that may or may not be worth it is a gamble I can't afford. I have 3 known reproductions (a Parker Brothers I've had since high school in the 80s, a 90s Camillus, and an overseas copy) that may not be worth much, but I don't feel bad using them to whittle wood while camping either! 

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