USS Baltimore hand-engraved Dewey on ebay

[aerialbridge]

Interesting Dewey medal ostensibly hand-engraved (rather than rim impressed as on original issue medals) to Carpenters Mate 2 c   George W. McKay with the name of the ship on the reverse, also appearing hand-engraved, rather than impressed as on original issue medals.     McKay is on the USS Baltimore Dewey medal rolls but as a Carpenters Mate 3c.  That fact would not cause me concern as there are documented instances of rates not matching the medal rolls of bona fide, original issue rim impressed Dewey's because a man had promoted or demoted or just plain clerical error.  Two usual ways to confirm a fake Dewey, even where the planchet looks convincing (as it does here)  are the suspension rings are often too thin and the pin assembly is not correct.   Here, the rings look good and so does the pin assembly, meaning it looks line an actual, period (120 year old or a bit less) Tiffany Struck Dewey, complete with genuine looking drape fragment on an appropriately detailed and authentic brooch.   So if this medal is authentic it would be a reissue, likely due to the original medal being lost, stolen, etc.   The only way to confirm that is to order McKay's file from NARA St. Louis and hope there is some correspondence in there from him requesting a replacement medal.  Currently,  apparently two collector/dealers believe this to be a genuine reissue, one with 5,700 some feedback, the other with 7,700 feedback, who are bidding on it.   If it does check out as a reissue, that would actually be rarer than one of the original 1750 some Deweys issued, and so worth north of $2500 IMO.  This seller, whom I've never bought from, has other militaria items including  BB&B rim # 955 Navy Philippine Campaign medal.    Yes, that's possible and it would be something if it were.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1898-Medal-USS-Baltimore-Dewey/383814752209?hash=item595d2457d1:g:8OQAAOSwMdpfsyur

 

[MMcollector]

I’m the 2nd bidder. I like it as well. 

[aerialbridge]

I like it a lot and if the seller can confirm that #955 Phil came from the same source as this, I have a hunch that will check out to McKay. Balto did qualify for the Phil.   But, I've got 2 Dewey's already, both to USS Olympia sailors and so good luck with it Clinton, keep it in California since that's where McKay was born and is buried.  If I didn't have those two Deweys (or maybe just one) I'd definitely go for this one.   Here's his pension card, showing service from 1896 to 1899,  USS Philadelphia, Baltimore and Solace, applied for pension from Cal, and 1910 Census, he was married and working as a house carpenter in Frisco.   Here's his and wife's grave-site, up in Colma outside of Frisco.   If you have newspapers.com there should be an obituary on him,  died  4 June 1951 at age 76.  

[aerialbridge]

FindaGrave

 

 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/104752787/george-william-mckay

[aerialbridge]

Here's McKay's obituary from the San Francisco Chronicle in 1951, which notes he was a Dewey Medal recipient.  Most of these men were extremely proud of being in Dewey's Asiatic Squadron at Manila Bay and not uncommon to see it mentioned in their obits.   This seller is out of Mentone, CA, which is east of LA in San Bernardino County.  The fact it's coming out of California IMO only strengthens the supposition that it is a genuine replacement Dewey medal to Californian McKay.   Since McKay was a house carpenter  born and lived his entire life in San Francisco, we can be sure he was busy after The Great 1906 San Francisco earthquake which saw much of the city destroyed by the quake and ensuing fires.   It's possible that if McKay's own residence was destroyed, he lost his original Dewey medal in the quake.   Clinton, you need to win this auction since I know you will do the research and share it here, rather than this going to a closet collector.   

 

https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/events/1906calif/18april/

 

[KASTAUFFER]

There was a collector in Socal back in the 1980's who got his hands on some "unnamed" Tiffany Dewey's and had them engraved up. This ones got some age to it so thats a positive.  I dont have any photos of what the bad engraving looked like. 

 

Kurt

[aerialbridge]

These were bona fide Tiffany Dewey's  from 100 plus years ago (as this one I believe most certainly is) that some guy engraved to deceive for sale back in the 1980s? Do you remember if he humped up tattered drape fragments or if there was  "applied aging"  that looked as real as this medal?  I've been watching every Dewey that came up on Ebay since 2008 (which is were I bought my two original, impressed Deweys) that was listed as such, and have not seen any fake that looked like this one with period looking engraving, that was not obviously fake.   I don't know this seller in Mentone, but based on what he's selling, he's not a medal seller.   I have no interest in what this sells for, but I'll stick to my belief that this is what it appears to be, and not created to make a sale.   If anybody has a blank, bona fide late 19th century Dewey with a blank rim and blank ship's area (not ground off),  I'd be interested to see it.   I have one of the Paul Till 1960s Tiffany restrike and cased Deweys that I bought from Adam and the pin assembly and crack in the planchet (plus unaged look) make it very easy to spot as not being an original strike Tiffany Dewey.  On this medal for sale now, the verdi gris on the last few letters of the word "class" if it is faked, is really quite an amazing attention to detail. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.    Not meaning to be contrarian to you, but many are quick to raise the fake specter over something that might just be real but out of the ordinary.  IMO,  if this stays around $1200, that's a great deal for an original strike, period Dewey.   As said, only the NARA records in St. Louis might clear up the mystery, and they might not, since he discharged in 1899 and there most probably is no receipt for the original, impressed Dewey in his file.  That was the case with a late forum dealer member here and the unusual cased, USS Amphitrite Sampson that I bought on ebay several years ago, and right as rain, even though the obverse was not the engagement listed in Gleim's book, because the officer attached to the ship after that engagement.  I actually owe that gentleman thanks since the "suspicious medal" thread that was started made it snake bit and I got it for a better than expected price with no last minute snipers. 

 

 

[aerialbridge]

One other point, the Dewey medal rolls were available back in the 1980s.   McKay is listed as Carpenter's Mate 3rd class.  So if someone were humping up a fake, why would they engrave it  2nd class?  It is tempting, I got a 10% ebay bucks for two days.  

[jmpmstr]

Any thoughts on the engraved looking USS Baltimore on the reverse? Doesn’t look like anything I have. 

[aerialbridge]

Just that it's hand-engraved as you say and does not appear to have been engraved over a previous name that had been ground off, which would have clearly made it a fraud.   So, regardless of whether the engraving is genuine for a bona fide replacement medal, it seems to have been a genuine, period Tiffany struck,  blank (non-impressed, including the ship's name and recipient on rim) Dewey medal.  Again, if anyone has a blank, period (100 year old or more)  Tiffany Dewey,  please post it to confirm they exist.  This medal closed at $1675 to an ebay buyer with only 24 feedback and just the final bid.  Assuming that ebayer is not a shill or scam bidder,  I tend to think with that low feedback it's not a member of this forum, so I doubt we'll hear more about this medal or what the NARA file reveals, if anything, of George W. McKay.   The Navy Philippine Campaign medal #955 that sold some minutes after this sold for its only bid of $500 to a buyer with feedback of 79, who was the runner-up for the Dewey medal.  Doubt we'll here more about either medal and with the low feedback numbers for both buyers, probably neither are forum member or saw this thread before the auctions closed.   And we may never know whether Philippine Campaign medal #955 was issued to George W. McKay for service on USS Baltimore, which would have been significant as far as the authenticity of the Dewey IMO.   

[jmpmstr]

I was referring to the USS Baltimore on the reverse. I’ve seen spurious Deweys but none where the ship name appeared that way. I get the rim engraving and wasn’t as concerned about that. 
I walked away at 1575 because I thought Clinton might be going for it so I backed off. 
 

[aerialbridge]

9 hours ago, jmpmstr said:

I was referring to the USS Baltimore on the reverse. I’ve seen spurious Deweys but none where the ship name appeared that way. I get the rim engraving and wasn’t as concerned about that. 
I walked away at 1575 because I thought Clinton might be going for it so I backed off. 
 

Right, I knew what you meant about the "USS Baltimore" being hand engraved on the reverse, and I forget the fancy name for the little rectangular tablet reserved for the ship's name.  Was the ship's name impressed on obvious fakes you've seen through the years or how engraved?   Sorry to hear that you held back for nothing.  I had that impression, too, based on the response here.   Maybe spooked because of that really obvious Indian Wars fake that is running on ebay now, where the dark, mottled and cakey patina looks like it was applied with a paint brush.   Possible moral of the story, never hold back what you're willing to go unless you coordinate with someone else rather than assume what they are going to do.   That and no good deed goes unpunished.  An interesting bit of evidence on the medals here,  the Philippine also appears to have a spot of verdi gris on the front at 6 oclock.  I've noticed on century old mounted medal groups that I've seen that the medals have very similar patina, being exposed to the same humidity, temperatures, etc, for decades.  If you're interested, you could contact the seller in case the winner doesn't pay up.  

[KASTAUFFER]

17 hours ago, aerialbridge said:

These were bona fide Tiffany Dewey's  from 100 plus years ago (as this one I believe most certainly is) that some guy engraved to deceive for sale back in the 1980s? Do you remember if he humped up tattered drape fragments or if there was  "applied aging"  that looked as real as this medal?  I've been watching every Dewey that came up on Ebay since 2008 (which is were I bought my two original, impressed Deweys) that was listed as such, and have not seen any fake that looked like this one with period looking engraving, that was not obviously fake.   I don't know this seller in Mentone, but based on what he's selling, he's not a medal seller.   I have no interest in what this sells for, but I'll stick to my belief that this is what it appears to be, and not created to make a sale.   If anybody has a blank, bona fide late 19th century Dewey with a blank rim and blank ship's area (not ground off),  I'd be interested to see it.   I have one of the Paul Till 1960s Tiffany restrike and cased Deweys that I bought from Adam and the pin assembly and crack in the planchet (plus unaged look) make it very easy to spot as not being an original strike Tiffany Dewey.  On this medal for sale now, the verdi gris on the last few letters of the word "class" if it is faked, is really quite an amazing attention to detail. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.    Not meaning to be contrarian to you, but many are quick to raise the fake specter over something that might just be real but out of the ordinary.  IMO,  if this stays around $1200, that's a great deal for an original strike, period Dewey.   As said, only the NARA records in St. Louis might clear up the mystery, and they might not, since he discharged in 1899 and there most probably is no receipt for the original, impressed Dewey in his file.  That was the case with a late forum dealer member here and the unusual cased, USS Amphitrite Sampson that I bought on ebay several years ago, and right as rain, even though the obverse was not the engagement listed in Gleim's book, because the officer attached to the ship after that engagement.  I actually owe that gentleman thanks since the "suspicious medal" thread that was started made it snake bit and I got it for a better than expected price with no last minute snipers. 

 

 

 

I'm just telling you what I know and Adam knows about it too.. Its been over 30 years since the person faked these which is plenty of time for "aging" to occur.  You can decide for yourself if you like the medal or not. Myself, without verification he actually received a replacement, and without verification that replacements were hand engraved like this one, I would choose not to add this to my collection. If the Philippine were traceable on the medal rolls, I'd feel better about it. Its not on the OMSA medal rolls, That means you have to wait for his file and cross your fingers. 

 

I also looked at the sellers other auctions and they are selling a lot of medals. Who ever is selling this is not your run of the mill general antique dealer or estate picker.

 

Kurt

[aerialbridge]

I spoke to our mutual friend and respected collector and medal dealer, Adam,  about a week ago and then last night about this ebay medal.   Adam related that he does not recall that some grifter had a number of original, unnamed Dewey's engraved to deceive and sell thirty years ago.  He said he does recall about 15-20 years ago, someone  selling fake, engraved Dewey medals that were "much cruder" both in terms of the medal quality and the engraving than this one,  nor has he seen an "engraved fake" that looks like this one, in terms of quality all around.   On the issue of "original (aka Tiffany struck) unnamed Dewey medals" floating around in the collector-sphere,  Adam said in his going on 40 years of collecting, he has owned and seen a grand total of one.  It came in the original pigskin case and had a document with it that he said further strengthened that it had been officially presented to a civilian.  Other than that he has seen one other original, blank Dewey planchet (never had a ring soldered on it) which he purchased from another dealer and at one time owned years ago.   So there never was a number of original, blank, unnamed Tiffany struck Dewey medals out there to be humped up and engraved to deceptively sell.    As to this medal,  Adam believes it is at least 100-110 years old.  While he stopped short of proclaiming it to be  100% an original Tiffany strike Dewey from 120 years ago, there was nothing on the planchet or broach that he could point out as indicating a fake (aka, a  non-original Tiffany struck Dewey).   He said that whatever official, Dewey replacement medals exist, he believes they would be hand engraved rather than impressed as the originals were, due to the cost to impress just a medal here or there.  There would also be so few genuine replacement medals, and probably spread out over a period of years, that there would not be just one  engraver, so no consistent or identifiable "engraver's hand" such as with Navy good conduct, Purple Hearts,  DFCs, Silver Stars, Air Medals, etc., etc..    And Adam agreed that there might be a paper trail in George William McKay's service file at NARA St. Louis, which would certainly confirm it for the cost of about $75, which if I could just toss out $75, I would order out of curiosity.  So, bottom line, people, including experienced collectors,  can draw their own conclusions on this medal based on all the evidence.   Adam will not go on record saying he believes this medal is "fake- engraved to deceive" nor would he guarantee it is an authentic "replacement medal".    He said it is "interesting".   Confucius say picture is worth a thousand words, so for the benefit of those on the sidelines, here's a few for comparison.    BTW, the fake is considered to be a really, really good one.  But there are observable differences, which I'll let people figure out with their own eyes.  The real deal ones of course, are rim impressed, from 1899.

 

 

[Wharfmaster]

If I wanted a Dewey Medal, I would purchase a properly impressed example with zero issues. Mint FS condition in the box if possible.

 

I may wish to sell the medal one day and don't want anyone saying my medal is questionable for any reason.

 

 

W

[MMcollector]

I did not have the funds to be a contender on the Dewey after my initial bid. Interesting twist that Philippine Campaign is back on eBay. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383835687100

[aerialbridge]

Sorry to hear that,  it's too bad that you or jmprstr didn't end up with it, since I believe either of you would have then ordered up the file from Geoff or another archivist to solve the mystery of whether there is a document in the service file to corroborate that this is a bona fide replacement medal authorized by BUPERS for Tiffany & Co. to furnish McKay.   Everyone has their opinion and mine is that this Dewey is an authentic replacement medal.  I'm not surprised to see that the sole bidder and winner of the Phillippine Campaign chose to take a powder, since he bid on the Philippine before he ended up also ran on the Dewey.  I  believe his bid on the Philippine was  with the intent to get both medals, assuming they were both McKay's, as I do.  When he didn't win the Dewey, the real prize, he bagged it on the Philippine.  What would you think,  Clinton, if McKay's service file in St. Louis does not contain a letter from BUPERS to Tiffanys authorizing a replacement engraved Dewey, but does have a medal receipt for Philippine #955?    Is NARA open now to researchers during the  ______ Plague?

[aerialbridge]

Now, if you want to see a fake  USS Baltimore Dewey,  here's one on ebay now,   12/20/20.   But it would be wrong to rush to judgment that the seller is aware of this.  And I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt that he believes it is authentic.   Caveat emptor.   Adam and I discussed it and his comment was, "When I saw the picture of the obverse and reverse I knew exactly what the ENGRAVING on the rim would look like."  This is likely one of the ones that he recalls seeing about 15-20  years ago, that some faker was crudely engraving for the collector market.   Also note the mottled, unappealing applied "patina".  Another characteristic often seen in the fakes, is that the rims are slightly convex, with a bulge like an anti-torpedo hull, as you can see in the pix.  Real Tiffany made and engraved Dewey rims are as flat as North Dakota or Florida.     Merry Christmas and pass on this one unless you have $1898 to burn.  1898 as in the year of the Span Am war, but a bit low for a genuine Dewey price tag. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164591525568?ul_noapp=true

[aerialbridge]

Chinese and domestic fakers may one day replicate the distinctive, unmistakable machine engraving of genuine Dewey Medals,  but they're far from there yet. Crisp, sharply defined and readily distinctive with no flash or spillover from the metal being impressed.  121 year old Tiffany quality control at its best.

 

 

[Blacksmith]

Thank you Aerialbridge.  Very concise, great pics, and helpful information.

[aerialbridge]

To close the loop on the subject fake USS Baltimore Dewey medal and for the good reputation of the seller, he has changed his listing to "replica" and knocked the price down to a realistic 99 bucks after being told by "various OMSA members" that it was not authentic.  "It is our policy to never sell fakes nor defraud the Ebay public"   says the seller.  Wouldn't it be great if all eBay was like that.