.38 Victory, US Army use

[dustin]

The .38 Special, Smith & Wesson is a favorite of many and right up there in the chronicles of small arms for the US Military in WWII. Through various sources we know a lot about them. Their prominent use has been with the US Navy, most notably through images. We do know that these were procured by the US Army, in part, even the procurement of the various holster types. However, it appears their use by the US Army had been limited. I am referring strictly to the "Victory" model, 4-inch barrel. I do not know if any images have ever surfaced of US Army personnel donning them in the past, but allow me to present two such images. 

 

First is an image of Brigadier General Edgar Sorenson, commanding the 6th Air Force, Panama Canal Zone. He is presenting the Soldiers Medal tp Captain William Vrecenak, 18 August 1944. Vrecenak rescued a person from drowning swimming through rough seas at Gorgona Beach, Panama in March of 1944. Sorenson wears a Victory model with hip type holster.

 

 

Second is what appears to be US Army personnel on Munda Airfield, Georgia Island, August 1943. Elements of the 14th (XIV) Army Corps seized the airfield on 6th August, other details highly suggest these are US Army troops. The individual in question appears to be a US Army Captain, collar brass on the right lapel, His side arm is a Victory model with hip type holster. 

 

 

 

[dustin]

Other than the date and location as evidence these to be US Army, the Captain is wearing a Army pattern HBT jacket. The strongest supporting evidence is the soldier in the back ground, he wears the 1941 pattern HBT jacket. The waist line being the significant detail but their are a couple other as well.

 

 

 

[OLDNAVYNUKESPOOK]

Excellent article on the Victory in the December 2020 issue of the NRA American Rifleman magazine pp.46-51

[101CH47]

I was issued a S&W Victory Model in 1985 when I was assigned to the CH47 battalion at Ft Campbell, it was my assigned weapon until we exchanged our revolvers for M9s around 1988 or so.

[mohawkALSE]

I need to go through the hard drive I have with pics from my fathers unit in Vietnam, but Im pretty sure at least 2 other pilots there had S&W Victory Models between 1968-1970 as they had a lanyard loop on them.  My father just had one of the regular Model 10 revolvers from the 60s which had no loop.

[Charlie Flick]

On 11/21/2020 at 3:13 PM, dustin said:

The .38 Special, Smith & Wesson is a favorite of many and right up there in the chronicles of small arms for the US Military in WWII. Through various sources we know a lot about them. Their prominent use has been with the US Navy, most notably through images. We do know that these were procured by the US Army, in part, even the procurement of the various holster types. However, it appears their use by the US Army had been limited. I am referring strictly to the "Victory" model, 4-inch barrel. I do not know if any images have ever surfaced of US Army personnel donning them in the past, but allow me to present two such images. 

Thanks for the post, Dustin.  You raise an interesting point and have posted neat pics to spur the discussion.  My following comments pertain only to WW2 U.S. military use of the 4 inch barreled, .38 Special Victory, not other barrel lengths, not the .38 S&W version nor the post-War use by the Army.   

 

Your observation that use of the 4 inch Victory by the Army in WW2 was limited is correct.  Indeed, I would say extremely limited.  That accounts for the almost total lack of photographic proof of such use.  The reasons for that are several.  First, the Army had the M1911A1 .45 pistol as its standardized pistol.  Introduction of another sidearm on a large scale and one in a caliber other than .45 would present considerable logistical difficulties and divert scarce resources.  Second, The Army ultimately had 4 different manufacturers making the M1911A1 pistol which swiftly overcame the shortage experienced at the start of the War.  Third, the Army still had considerable stocks of M1917 .45 Colt and S&W revolvers on hand as secondary standard weapons.  In the final analysis, in WW2 the Army just did not need or want the Victory and never seriously entertained adopting it in WW2.

 

The Victory has been the subject of considerable study by many collectors in recent years.  To date, no evidence that I am aware of shows any significant shipments of the 4 inch, .38 Special Victory from the S&W factory to Army destinations in WW2.  Instead, the military Victorys ended up supplying the Navy (including some few going to the Marine Corps which still preferred the M1911A1 pistol), the Coast Guard which in war time came under Navy control, and the OSS.  It is true that the Army Ordnance Department took over the handling of small arms purchases for the Navy in 1942.  However, while the Army had an administrative role those guns continued to be shipped to Navy, Coast Guard and OSS destinations and not to the Army.

 

Author/arms researcher Charlie Pate has documented 168 S&W .38 revolvers carried aboard Army-operated ships and vessels.  Some were determined to be Victory Model revolvers by their V serial prefix, but those appear to have been shipped from the factory to the Navy or the US Maritime Commission.

 

Which raises the question as to how BG Sorenson in your first photo taken in Panama came to be carrying a Victory.  (The photo does not provide a clear view of the revolver but what can be seen is consistent with a Victory.)  As a General Officer Sorenson was entitled to a GO pistol which at that time was the Colt Pocket Hammerless in .32 ACP and later in .380.  M1911A1s could also be issued to GOs at their option.   I am not aware of any Victory revolvers issued to GOs as their GO pistol, but I suppose that could have happened.  I will say that it is also possible that Gen. Sorenson obtained his Victory by other means.   The Victory Model Database reveals that 1000 Victory revolvers were shipped to the Panama Canal Zone Police Department at Balboa in May, 1942.   Coincidence? Gen. Sorenson is carrying the Victory in the flapped, unmarked hip holster intended for 4 inch .38 Special revolvers that was purchased by the US Government from Brauer Brothers of St. Louis, MO.

 

The second photo is too indistinct for me to be able to draw any conclusions.  I'll take your word for it that it shows a soldier with a holstered 4 inch Victory.

 

The only other instance where the 4 inch Victory is thought to have seen any Army use in WW2 was with the First Cavalry Division.  I can't find it now but I have a recollection of having seen one or two images of First Cavalry personnel in the Philippines in 1945 carrying what appeared to be the Victory.  If I can find those images I will post them here.

 

Regards,

Charlie

[Charlie Flick]

On 11/21/2020 at 7:34 PM, OLDNAVYNUKESPOOK said:

Excellent article on the Victory in the December 2020 issue of the NRA American Rifleman magazine pp.46-51

 

Yes, I have read it and hold its author, Bruce Canfield, in high regard as a source for excellent, informed writings on a wide variety of USGI small arms.  

 

However, even the best of us can make a mistake.  At the end of the article the discussion on the 2 inch barreled Victory Model revolvers states "The only martial marking typically applied was a  small "flaming bomb" insignia on the top of the frame."   That point is illustrated with an adjacent photo with the caption "The U.S. military "flaming bomb" insignia was applied to this S&W Victory Model with 2" barrel."  However, the photo depicts not a Victory but rather a Colt Commando revolver with the flaming bomb marking at the upper left frame just forward of the hammer.  Rock Island Auction is credited with the 2 photos, but the photos used to illustrate this point are just flat wrong.  Beyond that, and more importantly, no Victory Model revolvers, 2 inch or otherwise, had flaming bomb marks placed at the upper left frame. 

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

[OLDNAVYNUKESPOOK]

Good eye, Charlie!  Yep, that flaming bomb is definitely on a 2-inch Commando.  I'm fortunate to have one which, in addition to the flaming bomb, there were also the pin punch marks in various inconspicuous places.  There is an instance where the flaming bomb exists on a Victory but, as you say, not on the upper left frame. I have a 4-inch lettered to the U.S. Navy that has a small flaming bomb on the top strap followed by "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D."

[robinb]

4" Victory with said flaming bomb.

[Charlie Flick]

Hi Robin:

 

The marking you show is located on the left top strap of the revolver, not the upper left frame of 2 inchers as discussed in the article.  Ordnance Department shell-and-flame insignia ('flaming bombs") were also located on the butts of some Victory Model revolvers.  No Victory Model revolvers had factory applied flaming bomb marks located at the upper left frame forward of the hammer.

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

[robinb]

I realize that. I was adding to the post just before mine where he mentions the flaming bomb on the top strap of a Victory.

[BruceCanfield]

Charlie,  Of course you're correct about the photo in question showing a Colt Commando 2" instead of the S&W Victory Model 2" revolver. I sent the wrong photo to American Rifleman for the recent article. Absolutely my fault. I should have sent the one below (circled) that was in my new WWII Small Arms book.

[dustin]

That was the intention to spur a little bit of intrigue and conversation, which it did drum up some information in regards to a parallel of BG Sorenson. As for the second picture, it may not be definitive but it does hold a lot of similar characteristics. So maybe we will apply an asterisk to it. 

I look forward to reading that article in the near future!

[tthen]

Found this picture, not sure if it's a Victory  but definitely a revolver. 

[thorin6]

Looks like it could be a M1917 revolver (uses half-moon clips with .45 ACP rounds) in a butt-forward (on the right side) holster worn here on the left side.

[Spathologist]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:45 PM, thorin6 said:

Looks like it could be a M1917 revolver (uses half-moon clips with .45 ACP rounds) in a butt-forward (on the right side) holster worn here on the left side.

 

I agree.

[Scottz63]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:45 PM, thorin6 said:

Looks like it could be a M1917 revolver (uses half-moon clips with .45 ACP rounds) in a butt-forward (on the right side) holster worn here on the left side.

Yup, it appears longer than a Victory.

[dustin]

This is image is of (L-R); Brig. Gen Clinton Vincent, Maj. Gen Claire Chennault and Lt.Gen Joseph Stilwell. Vincent wears to what appears to be a Victory type hips holster. However, the small arm in it could be something entirely different. The holster at least has all the hallmarks of being for the .38 Special.