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US Navy undress blues- early WWII?


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Now, I can check undress blues off the ole sea bag issue. Picked these out of the “bay” for $9. Not bad, if you ask me. 

 

Seaman branch with torpedoman mark. Has zippered trouser pocket on the wearer’s left. Definitely worn, but not abused. No holes or damage. No name or laundry number. I asked the seller for info and got the following- “The estate sale mgr told me there were 3 generations of military members uniform lots. I purchased the uniform you purchased and some of the WW1 items in state of Wa. In the WW1 campaign hat was the name of that soldier. That’s all I know.“ The undress blues look like WWII or maybe pre-war to me. I could be wrong. The name on the tag accompanying the WWI Army items was M.O. Smith. 
 

Was it likely from a submariner or someone stationed on a PT, DD, or early BB prior to refit? Please share your thoughts. Thanks. 
 

The blues also came with a white cotton cover for a combination cap. 

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R. Patterson

Boatswains Mate

USCG 1998-2010

“The Boatswain’s Mate and Coxswain is A JACK OF ALL TRADES AND A MASTER OF THEM ALL.”- 1944 edition of the BM2c training course material. 
“They gave us an engine that first went up and down. With some more technology, the engine went around. We know of steam and diesel, but what’s a main yard for? A sailor ain’t a sailor, ain’t a sailor anymore!”- The Last Shanty

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Looks WW2 era to me. Or at least before they started using the sleeve patches to denote non Petty-Officer ranks. I can't remember the exact date they switched, but I think in the 50's or 60's. As for whom it was used by could be anything you mentioned. It doesn't have the PT Boat patch, no submarine badge either, but we can assume that they either did not wear it, or it has been lost from this uniform overtime. All in all a solid Jumper.

I am an amateur collector of US military items of the 20th century.

 

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-WW2 items belonging to service members from Northern Virginia

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-Cheap/Throwaway WW2 named uniforms

-Smaller WW2 Groupings

-7th Infantry Division Items

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Thanks for the response. How elaborate did markings get on the undress uniforms? 
 

We still had undress blues when I was in the Coast Guard. It was working blue trousers with a light blue short sleeved “trop” shirt. We didn’t wear anything on the shirt accept your name plate and  crows. Had to wear them while standing bridge watches underway and when messcooking for the wardroom. 

R. Patterson

Boatswains Mate

USCG 1998-2010

“The Boatswain’s Mate and Coxswain is A JACK OF ALL TRADES AND A MASTER OF THEM ALL.”- 1944 edition of the BM2c training course material. 
“They gave us an engine that first went up and down. With some more technology, the engine went around. We know of steam and diesel, but what’s a main yard for? A sailor ain’t a sailor, ain’t a sailor anymore!”- The Last Shanty

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11 hours ago, TheCrustyBosun said:

Thanks for the response. How elaborate did markings get on the undress uniforms? 
 

We still had undress blues when I was in the Coast Guard. It was working blue trousers with a light blue short sleeved “trop” shirt. We didn’t wear anything on the shirt accept your name plate and  crows. Had to wear them while standing bridge watches underway and when messcooking for the wardroom. 

 

I'm not entirely sure. I've seen them worn with nothing, all the way up to seeing some with ribbons and such. I think it really depends, I'm sure when using it as a working uniform, the less the better. Insignia could be expensive for a sailor on WW2 era pay, so I'm guessing they really didn't put anything on undress blues unless ordered too, so besides rank insignia usually not much. Not to mention finding somewhere to purchase insignia while at sea was probably tricky, and not a first priority for any of the ships services. 

 

I've found WW2 era Naval uniforms to be quite the enigma when it comes to regulation with insignia on dress and undress uniforms. I'm guessing part of the variation is due to the many different levels of dress and undress in the regulations and abundance of uniform types and options. Pair that with a 70-80 year gap that causes insignia to get lost or misplaced on uniforms and you get what seems to be quite the array of different insignia types. I would think there is a good chance your jumper was worn just like this. 

 

Hunt

I am an amateur collector of US military items of the 20th century.

 

Looking for items related to:

-The Aleutian Island Campaign of WW2, Alaskan Theater, Alaska Defense Command, and more specifically the Battle of Attu

-Items related to the 50th Combat Engineer Regiment/Battalion

-Items related to Wheelus Air Force Base Libya, particularly from 1957-1960

-WW2 items belonging to service members from Northern Virginia

-WW2 Uniforms (all branches and services)

-Cheap/Throwaway WW2 named uniforms

-Smaller WW2 Groupings

-7th Infantry Division Items

-WW2 Photos and Letters (all branches, theaters, services, etc)

 

^^ PM ME!!

 

Instagram: @surplus_central https://instagram.com/surplus_central/

eBay: http://www.ebay.com/usr/giovachm

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Correct. I did mention those types (minus the DE and CG) in my original post. Without identification, I don’t think I’ll ever know. 
 

Did any BB’s still have their torpedo tubes in WWII?  If I remember correctly, the Texas had hers removed in the 1925 refit. Seems like other BB classes would have followed suit in the removal of those systems. 

R. Patterson

Boatswains Mate

USCG 1998-2010

“The Boatswain’s Mate and Coxswain is A JACK OF ALL TRADES AND A MASTER OF THEM ALL.”- 1944 edition of the BM2c training course material. 
“They gave us an engine that first went up and down. With some more technology, the engine went around. We know of steam and diesel, but what’s a main yard for? A sailor ain’t a sailor, ain’t a sailor anymore!”- The Last Shanty

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What the jumper shows is correct.  The white braid on the right should indicates the seaman branch and he is a non-rate.  My guess is a Seaman 1/c.  He's qualified as a torpedoman (Went to school and passed all requirements), but hasn't made petty officer.  Once he makes petty officer (Torpedoman's mate 3rd class), the braid and the torpedo distinguishing mark will come off and the rating badge will be put on the right sleeve.

 

Undress blue jumper wore all of the regular sleeve markings - rating badges and service stripes and qualification marks.

 

Another option is that he worked in a shore based torpedo shop.

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41 minutes ago, 29navy said:

What the jumper shows is correct.  The white braid on the right should indicates the seaman branch and he is a non-rate.  My guess is a Seaman 1/c.  He's qualified as a torpedoman (Went to school and passed all requirements), but hasn't made petty officer.  Once he makes petty officer (Torpedoman's mate 3rd class), the braid and the torpedo distinguishing mark will come off and the rating badge will be put on the right sleeve.

 

Undress blue jumper wore all of the regular sleeve markings - rating badges and service stripes and qualification marks.

 

Another option is that he worked in a shore based torpedo shop.

I was thinking the same thing, but the possible shore duty aspect didn’t dawn on me. Makes sense as well. I wish I had more info for identification. Thanks for the input!

R. Patterson

Boatswains Mate

USCG 1998-2010

“The Boatswain’s Mate and Coxswain is A JACK OF ALL TRADES AND A MASTER OF THEM ALL.”- 1944 edition of the BM2c training course material. 
“They gave us an engine that first went up and down. With some more technology, the engine went around. We know of steam and diesel, but what’s a main yard for? A sailor ain’t a sailor, ain’t a sailor anymore!”- The Last Shanty

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I'm thinking the trousers are pre-WWII.  How pre-, not sure.  The pair of grommet hole on either side of the front flap is what is called for in the 1922 uniform regs, but they weren't there in WWII.  The 1922 regs also called for a blue check lining which these do not have. Not sure when they stopped that.

 

The jumper seems a bit thin, the WWII ones I think were a bit heavier flannel but could have still been in the system.

 

 

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The grommets on the trousers indicated pre-war to me but the zippered pocket is a WWII feature as I understand it. The jumper’s yoke shape and drawstring are features I understand to be consistent with WWII issue. I’m still learning about these and appreciate the help. 

Do you have a photo illustrating the blue check lining?

R. Patterson

Boatswains Mate

USCG 1998-2010

“The Boatswain’s Mate and Coxswain is A JACK OF ALL TRADES AND A MASTER OF THEM ALL.”- 1944 edition of the BM2c training course material. 
“They gave us an engine that first went up and down. With some more technology, the engine went around. We know of steam and diesel, but what’s a main yard for? A sailor ain’t a sailor, ain’t a sailor anymore!”- The Last Shanty

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Part of the problem with Navy uniforms is that they did not put out a new uniform regs between 1922 and 1941.  They made changes and unless you have a 1922 Regulations with ALL of the updates or can find all (almost) 20 years of changes in the archives, you don't know exactly when things were added or changed.

 

The drawstring lasted til March of 1944 when the jumpers were shortened to save fabric.

 

Here is a pair (found on ebay)

ww1 trou.jpg

ww1 trou 2.jpg

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9 minutes ago, 29navy said:

Part of the problem with Navy uniforms is that they did not put out a new uniform regs between 1922 and 1941.  They made changes and unless you have a 1922 Regulations with ALL of the updates or can find all (almost) 20 years of changes in the archives, you don't know exactly when things were added or changed.

 

The drawstring lasted til March of 1944 when the jumpers were shortened to save fabric.

 

Here is a pair (found on ebay)

ww1 trou.jpg

ww1 trou 2.jpg

Ah! Very interesting. Thanks!

R. Patterson

Boatswains Mate

USCG 1998-2010

“The Boatswain’s Mate and Coxswain is A JACK OF ALL TRADES AND A MASTER OF THEM ALL.”- 1944 edition of the BM2c training course material. 
“They gave us an engine that first went up and down. With some more technology, the engine went around. We know of steam and diesel, but what’s a main yard for? A sailor ain’t a sailor, ain’t a sailor anymore!”- The Last Shanty

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