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WWII USMC frogskin pants, possibly P44


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So I just got these pants the other day. I was actually buying four Red Cross posters and the seller tossed in these pants. I know they are WWII and I believe they are P44 first pattern pants. I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if they are definitely 1st pattern.  The pants are on great shape. They have the slots for a belt to be fed through and 5 USMC buttons on the fly. On the fly it's stamped JWR-8. I was thinking it might be a batch number or something the manufacturer put on it. I do not have any frogskin uniforms, so it's not something I know much about. Figured you'd all enjoy seeing them and maybe someone can also fill me in.  

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Trousers are the Second model/pattern

 

First pattern P44 had the sewn belt loops (not slotted loops), 3 snaps on the pocket flaps and draw string cuffs.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Sorry, but I would have to disagree about which is the first pattern on these. From what I've seen in photos, the first pattern of the P44's that show up in photos are the ones with the 4 buttons on the butt pocket and 5 buttons on the jacket.  There are some photos of the battle on the islands that make up the Eniwetok Atoll that show the P44 with 4 buttons in use. I have to find them again. One is of a flag raising and the other shows a wounded Marine getting treated, who if I"m not mistaken was part of a Recon unit that hit one of the smaller islands to the north of the main island. 

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Here's a couple of them. Close scrutiny of the first photo shows 4 button butt pocket on the Marine on the right. The other photo shows "P44" camo in use also during this battle by a Recon element. My personal opinion is that the first pattern was issued to Marines at least in late '43 since this battle was in Feb '44.  They camo was modified later to have 3 buttons on the butt pocket and 4 buttons on the jacket plus some other little modifications to the belt loops, etc.

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***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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There has always been speculation on patterns and times of wear. I personally just posted what has been expressed in books etc. There also has been speculation the P44 uniform was intended for the Para Marines but they were disbanned.THe similarities in the 3rd patterns smock and the p44 shirts unmistakeable due to the front chest pockets,dome snaps etc.  When these were developed was there an over lap in design changes or a short time between designs and the modifications? I have no idea. I know in Grunt gear there is a pattern drawing of the trousers with the 3 snap pockets. Maybe Alec can chime in and provide a date of the drawing.The book also shows a very clear picture of the 4 snap pocket trouser being worn on ship prior to the Iwo invasion. I have a set of trousers from a doctor that was on Iwo and also a helmet cover.Both I feel were issued for the impending invasion of Japan as they show little wear.Possible he was issued these for Iwo and never wore them but I never met him as these came from his estate sale where found in a closet in his home.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Here are two examples I have.

I had 8 sets of P44 at one time and a couple loose trousers. I still have a mint single set with a movie studio prop marking in it also.

 

The pockets design is very noticeable with the 3 snap being a lot narrower in width.Also the belt loops are shown. I guess we need more of the pattern drawings with dates or DQP records but Alec stated in his book many records do no longer exist from DQP or manufacturers.He did have research to contracts from larger contacts that were $50,000 or more and general correspondence.

 

Often its like what came first the chicken or the egg and with out some other records coming to surface we may never know as none of us were there.

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In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Navy Doctors P44 trousers. Have his shirt as well. They have a couple small repairs on the leg but show little wear. His have the 3 snap pocket and belt loops.Cuffs have the draw string. I recall my initail research in him put him assigned to the Marine Corps or going to the Combat Corosman School/Course in 1943? I havent found my notes. 

 

 

 

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In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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One of his caps.Have a couple belts,leggings,dress uniforms and a helmet cover.

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In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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His helmet cover.. unworn and its the type/pattern with the slots in the flaps.

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In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Agree that alot of what we accept is speculation until the documentation is found. One thing I noticed about these P44's is that at least from what I have seen, the 4 snap camo material has the same golden tan/light sage green coloration as the P42 camo while at least all the 3 snap P44's I've seen are made from that very dark sage green base colored camo material. Never have seen a set made out of the early golden tan base colored camo materiel. While not conclusive of course, add it to the other little clues and it becomes pretty strong evidence that the 4 snap variant came before the 3 snap variant. Same thing when it comes to the slitted vs non-slitted camo helmet covers.. but that is in another discussion thread. 

***WANTED: MINT UNISSUED USMC DEPOT WEB GEAR AND A SIZE 38 P42 CAMO JACKET***

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Wow I never knew how confusing it really was, nor did I know that there wasn't much period documentation on these uniforms.  The only conclusive information I have is that these uniforms are more difficult to come across.  It's great reading all this. It's amazing the amount of knowledge one can find amongst all you great people! 

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