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9 mm ammo in 64 round plain box history question- what do I have?


ostbob
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I have just received some 9 mm in plain vanilla boxes, quantity of 64 rounds, with no labeling on the boxes. The round have 9  mm 40 stamped on the bottom.

 

I'm curious as to:

1. Who might have manufactured them?

2. When might they have been manufactured?

3. How many grains are they...I.E. 115 or 124 etc.

4. Do they have any value to collectors?

5. If so what might they be worth? 

9 mm ammo 1.JPG

9 mm ammo 3.JPG

9 mm ammo 5.JPG

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Charlie Flick

As I recall, that stuff is Canadian manufactured.  I think the 41 date is deliberately bogus.  I think it was made in the 1950s.  There is a story about this ammo but I can't remember the details now and will have to check my research archives for the info later on when I have the time.  

 

More later.

 

Charlie

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From the International Ammunition Association Forum:

 

This was made In Canada, during WW II, by Defence Industries Ltd, the only Canadian maker of Boxer-primed Non-corrosive ammo during WW II (machinery and technology supplied by Dominion CIL, the major commercial maker of sporting ammo in Canada before and aftert WW II.)  This ammo was originally planned to be Covert ammo supplied to both the European and Asian Theatres, along with "clean" Sten Guns and 7,92 Brens (Stens by Long Branch, Brens by J.Inglis); the ammo bears dates of 43 and 44 (Known), maybe 42 as well. As the game played out, most of this ammo WAS supplied as part of Lend-Lease to China (Nationalist) Forces, during WW II and some immediately after WW II; as were the Majority of the "Clean" Brens and Stens (suitably marked with Maker's Names.) The Bren 7,92 supply was actually initiated by the Chinese, back in 1942, and samples of both ZB26 and Chinese Copies were sent to Canada,(Via the Burma Road and India) so that the Inglis Company could "reverse-Engineer" the BREN gun design from .303 back to 7,92 ( as it had been originally).

 

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More from the same source:

 

"There is however some controversy because this ammo also turned up in the 1960s as clandestine supplies to CIA backed insurgents in Central and South America. Some say that it was not made in 1944 at all but in the late 1950s with a false date. I am sure it actually dates from 1944, but whether a fresh batch was made later to confuse or it was simply that there was a suitable anonymous headstamp left over from the war I do not know."

I'm not sure anyone knows for sure when this ammo was manufactured or for whom.  

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Charlie Flick

This ammunition has been known in ammo collecting circles for some time, and is still generating some controversy.  It shows up with headstamp dates from 41 to 45.  The 64 round box can be explained by the fact that the STEN gun used 32 round magazines.

 

The pics below show an example of this ammo in my collection dated 43.  Photo credit to BigBoy99.

 

Part of the controversy has to do with the head stamp dates.  The ammo is believed to have been manufactured by Dominion Cartridge Company, a subsidiary of C-I-L, Canadian Industries, Ltd.  Dominion set up an entire new plant for the manufacture of 9MM ammunition as its other facilities were at capacity.  The earliest 9MM ammunition produced by Dominion is said to have been produced in April, 1942, which makes 41 dates on the head stamps dubious.  This is from the article entitled "9 X 19 Production By Defense Industries, Ltd." by Dwight Jackson as published in the International Ammunition Association Journal Issue 535.

 

At least some of this ammo is believed to have been manufactured for use and/or distribution by the OSS.  An unknown quantity ended up in the inventory of the OSS's successor, the Central Intelligence Agency.  Its 1966 Special Weapons Supply Catalog lists "CARTRIDGE, 9 millimeter - Canadian mfr., parabellum, grade 1, designed for pistols and submachine guns, 64 per carton."

 

This subject has come up here on the Forum a couple of times.   Here is one thread on the topic.  

 

The guys on the IAA Website have a variety of opinions on the subject as well.  Here is a long ago thread addressing this topic.  https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/9mm-round/14884 

 

Hope that answers most of your questions, although I readily acknowledge that some of this information has not been completely nailed down.

 

Regards,

Charlie

9MM Dominion 64 rd carton.jpg

9MM Dominion 64 rd open carton.jpg

9MM Dominion head stamp.jpg

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Thanks for all the great replys.... FYI most of them are stamped 40 only a few are stamped 41. Don't know if that just adds to the confusion. 

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Charlie Flick
54 minutes ago, ostbob said:

any idea of their value? same as regular 9 mm or ???

Ostbob:

 

Shootable ammo is now at an all time high in value in the USA.  Your ammo looks to be in good condition and should probably be shootable.  The starting point would be a price comparison to current made 9MM ball ammo.

 

However, I think there is more value to this ammo than its use as fodder for a Glock.  I regard this ammo as collectible.  I have not observed any recent sales of this ammo.  For unmarked boxes I would guess that this ammo might have a value in the $50-75 range. Boxes that have handwriting will be less valuable as they would be less attractive to collectors who tend to prefer pristine, unmarked, undamaged boxes.

 

HTH.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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