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Can you date my SEAL Trident?


Boy Howdy
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Unfortunately your Trident is a copy being produced for Andrew Butler in the UK who sell on eBay as the old_ club_badges.  I've read where he is not well liked by UK collectors due to his copies ending up in the hands of unscrupulous insignia sellers who turn around and sell his copies as originals.  The real one is hard to come by and I have tried in the past to locate the company who produced them based on the manufacture's name of "Johnson" and street name of "Warner Avenue" in Huntington Beach, California.  I found a bunch of people with the same last name of JOHNSON with an address off of Warner Avenue in Huntington Beach (see below).  I'm guessing they are all related and have businesses off of Warner Avenue.  Besides the first Tridents from the early 1970s this is the hardest variant of Trident to locate.    The real ones don't look that great either so I don't know if they were ever worn by members of the Seal Teams.

 

Business Description:

 

Mulligan & Johnson, which also operates under the name Perqs, is located in Huntington Beach, California. This organization primarily operates in the Bar (Drinking Places) business / industry within the Eating and Drinking Places sector. This organization has been operating for approximately 40 years. 

 

Kathleen Johnson, age 56, 6301 Warner Avenue, Huntington Beach, California (DOB 11.30.63) 

 

Colette M Johnson, age 67. 4167 Warner Ave, Huntington Beach, CA, 92649-4264

 

John H Johnson Inc, 4167 Warner Ave, Huntington Beach, CA

 

Robert W. Johnson, 4682 Warner Ave., Apt C310, Huntington Beach, CA

 

David Johnson, age 46, 6242 Warner Ave, Huntington Beach, CA

 

Dr. Jeffery Johnson DDS, 6086 Warner Ave, Huntington Beach, CA

 

Dr. Gregory L. Johnson DDS, 6968 Warner Ave, Huntington Beach, CA

 

 

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  • 6 months later...
Basic Rifleman
On 10/9/2020 at 8:04 PM, RobS. said:

K 22 N is Wilbur C. Kiff Co. Attleboro MA. I Have one in gold in my collection. Rob


 

Can we confirm this makers mark? If so, W.C. Kiff appears to have gone out of business in the 1970's possibly making these badges "good". There are few "K-22-N" IOH marks found on badges on eBay and Worthpoint, and this may be a indication of a small operation. A few have attributed "K-22" to Krew, but I feel pretty confident in saying this might be incorrect. Does anyone have any older IOH vendor registries or something concrete to connect the dots here?

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hello 

I have a couple of Tridents I'm looking to find out what their worth 

I'm fighting cancer and selling all my collections to raise money for treatment 

Any help would be appreciated

Thank you for your time

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The Trident is real and made by The Lordship Industries and I believe it is their earlier design with the elongated hollowing on the rear but it is not worth a great deal of money as it is not one of the original three companies (Antaya, NS Meyer or Vanguard) that produced them around 1970.  This one I'm guessing came out in the 1980s and would probably sell for something like 25 to 35 dollars at most.   The bottom full size enlisted silver UDT badge made by Antaya was short lived and is one of the original badges made around 1970.  However it doesn't sell for a great deal of money like the full size silver or gold Tridents of the same era and manufacture.  They sell for around 45 to 55 dollars.  

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  • 8 months later...

Hi. I came across this forum while searching for the authenticity of my plaques. I would like to know if these parts are "genuine". Maybe someone can help. I couldn't remove the sticker underneath because it was glued on. Translation of these lines unfortunately only with Google. Sorry and thanks for a help. Many greetings

Hallo. Ich bin auf der Suche nach der Echtheit meiner Plaketen auf dieses Forum gestossen. Ich würde gerne wissen, ob diese Teile " echt " sind. Vielleicht kann mit jemand helfen. Die unter Plakete könnte ich nicht lösen, da sie festgeklebt ist. Übersetzung dieser Zeilen leider nur mit Google. Sorry und Danke für eine Hilfe. Viele Grüße

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8 hours ago, andre_e said:

Hi. I came across this forum while searching for the authenticity of my plaques. I would like to know if these parts are "genuine". Maybe someone can help. I couldn't remove the sticker underneath because it was glued on. Translation of these lines unfortunately only with Google. Sorry and thanks for a help. Many greetings

Hallo. Ich bin auf der Suche nach der Echtheit meiner Plaketen auf dieses Forum gestossen. Ich würde gerne wissen, ob diese Teile " echt " sind. Vielleicht kann mit jemand helfen. Die unter Plakete könnte ich nicht lösen, da sie festgeklebt ist. Übersetzung dieser Zeilen leider nur mit Google. Sorry und Danke für eine Hilfe. Viele Grüße

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I believe you have a slightly older legitimate Vanguard made Trident.  The first part of the incised hallmark of V-21-N is hidden under the clutch back pin.  Their current Trident has a slightly different raised V-21-N inside of a rectangular depression which has been copied by the Chinese Communist and sell on places like eBay.  I would say that the era of manufacture of this Trident matches the inscription on your plaque of November 1991.  Nice original Seal Team Two plaque.   

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Hi. Thank you for the explanations. This is exciting. I carefully removed the bottom plaque from the wood. A little glue can still be seen. ( see photos )

Hallo. Vielen Dank für die Ausführungen. Das ist ja spannend. Ich habe die untere Plakete vorsichtig vom Holz entfernt. Ein wenig Kleber ist noch zu sehen. ( Siehe Fotos ) 

 

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  • 1 month later...
Basic Rifleman

I just picked up this miniature SEAL badge, and was wondering if anyone has seen this particular Vanguard mark, and can date it. It's the first time I've seen "Made in USA" along with their typical "V-21-N". I know Vanguard has sourced their production to Chinese firms for the better part of the past two decades, but if anyone knows when specifically that'd be great as well.

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1 hour ago, Basic Rifleman said:

I just picked up this miniature SEAL badge, and was wondering if anyone has seen this particular Vanguard mark, and can date it. It's the first time I've seen "Made in USA" along with their typical "V-21-N". I know Vanguard has sourced their production to Chinese firms for the better part of the past two decades, but if anyone knows when specifically that'd be great as well.

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it's relevant of a modern piece V-21-N is 1974 navy approved nice piece 

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I believe these came out after the Communist Chinese flooded the market with their counterfeit Tridents utilizing the same hallmarks used by Vanguard.  I was under the wrong assumption that Vanguard had sourced out their production of insignia to the Communist Chinese to save on labor costs.  Another member of this forum contacted Vanguard and was told that they have never sourced out their insignia production to China and that they are unlawfully utilizing their hallmarks.  Vanguard apparently is unable to stop the Chinese from selling these counterfeits as it is probably cost prohibited to sue them.  So my guess is that they added the MADE IN USA for a period of time after these counterfeit Tridents came out.  However their current Tridents don't have the MADE IN USA added hallmark anymore.  Below are photos of two full size Tridents where Vanguard had added the MADE IN USA hallmark.  As I can't make out the base of the clutch back pins on these Tridents I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to add the MADE IN USA to their counterfeit Tridents.  

 

 

V21N Made in U.S.A (2).jpg

V-21-N Made in USA (2).jpg

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Basic Rifleman
32 minutes ago, Tonomachi said:

Another member of this forum contacted Vanguard and was told that they have never sourced out their insignia production to China and that they are unlawfully utilizing their hallmarks.

Interesting... I too was under the impression for quite some time these were sourced overseas by Vanguard. I'm glad that turned out not to be true... and was cleared up by a forum member. It might be nothing, but mine has no periods between the letters USA like yours does. I'd find it weird they'd do it two different ways on purpose, so that likely adds to your theory China may have even produced some with "Made in USA" at some point. All that said, this actually has a good feel and look to it (and I've handled many both good and bad). It would be interesting to find one of the "Made in USA" examples on/in original Vanguard packaging to know for sure.... I'm sure more will be revealed...

 

So what approximate age should I file this one under? 2000's?

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I don't recall when these started showing up on places like eBay.  Below is a comparison between the current Vanguard full size Trident (top) and the Communist Chinese counterfeit Trident (bottom).  As you can see the Chinese have copied the rectangular depression and raised Vanguard hallmark of V-21-N.  So far it is easy to tell the difference by the base of the clutch back pins.  The Chinese counterfeits use a wide circular clutch back pin base.  There is a second Communist Chinese counterfeit Trident that isn't as well made and has the added hallmark of CH for I'm guessing China.  These confused me initially as you had Vanguard hallmarked Tridents with MADE IN USA and others with CH so I thought that maybe Vanguard was now having their stuff made in China.  They are apparently both counterfeit Tridents produced in China.  Since they have flooded places like eBay, are fairly well made and cost less than the original Vanguard Tridents my guess is that there are probably some Seals who are wearing them unknowingly as they would pass inspection.   

 

 

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  • 3 months later...
3 hours ago, torch42 said:

Hey guys,can anyone help with dating my trident please

 

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You have one of the sought after early 1970s Tridents made by Vanguard.  I've seen the double strike look on the back before with the upside down "N" missing after the V-21 hallmark.  You can find these for sale on eBay for a lot of money and they aren't selling because they are way overpriced.    

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Currently there is one made by Antaya on eBay with an asking price of $295.00: 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374276088599?hash=item572497e317:g:BxoAAOSwUNdjHlev&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoDjev6XQ6T98IUS9XPTHmDjiHfCOWw%2FzdHX5iAMULd9q3TLkgbTNY9mHPFkrPFXfRm8AFlhCTYxFQGKNw4Ok0qdpyyJ2HRMaxrxBWw941mAXVDl4b3BCdkLxY2IrDZIyu1rgqQA1RsPzLdeZ5DetwAxrciC16vvPlB1jcXLNpEcQlp08fj05DBfAiYkMh0B%2BDGxsvPr5rRMPINGpyCCI%2FHA%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_rplPjvYA

 

There is another one made by Antaya on eBay with an asking price of $649.95.  It is the same badge just different asking price.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165062738865?hash=item266e8183b1:g:M5UAAOSwaWxhEZfC&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4MDI7dWp%2FPK5dm8Y3m53lrua07ybRCcGk9ubNIe%2FzPDupuOgJ3Zb81dJncNS86rwfdokrndr5mzQEtaA8cqevGBY4m1b6VV9PGf6hIz7DJ21I9kiQUz8SA4RZOuGWgGs9kC4O1o8e%2BacAECfPLmJ7oOprrE1luQtb%2FnrB8uJBMHtXOxlz4NhZuwVGdkM%2FeKBqhtFbfKQlKjBoZSEOdBxtF8VeNl6fdTfOAO7uTiZQFvqAUea%2FP9Qzh0pDuRgY0o%2B4AlXi9a3K8UWpWRyy3SbTSGq9oHRe9js5cTOwckveqyX|tkp%3ABk9SR_jplPjvYA

 

The short lived enlisted silver Tridents will sell for more as there is one on eBay with an asking price of $949.95:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165654564130?hash=item2691c80d22:g:EhgAAOSwYJZjEMpD&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4BNMmwZAOnUl5xl%2BNpzFUfoTKitoD7Jk2S1iXOqOFxOfPU0GbhqHe2CK0rTppAA1oc2hh6yd%2FAdnZCkMbtcxxC70Cnm6Rk5Av%2BSbHCMqSElAXTx7MRdq5W4UJ95doM4BlBCMKI4T6PDcrUVCoe7l278Bx1wuKnQIjkGjg3vJCsO%2FZF6nPxu1B2p4Fswqbu%2BnswOBmCucy30l0sJGMHvv%2B9%2B3MoeY5blGFTkaegc%2FG5%2FMRjoRm8IpEcACqRwQYaWTIUjeKpsSK4jHrdUDBgrMHyHfpuQ4s464Saai65oN16%2FS|tkp%3ABk9SR_jplPjvYA

 

I used to be able to find these Tridents for around 100 dollars and the obsolete UDT badges for 25 dollars but no more.  Due to these high prices someone is producing copies and they are getting better at it so you have to be careful.  Most of the copies are cast pieces but there was one that looked stamped but the finish wasn't 100% correct and they left off part of the hallmark.  I worry that someone has found the original dies.

 

 

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  • 6 months later...
Basic Rifleman
On 9/27/2022 at 11:30 PM, Spike said:

That seller is higher than giraffe poontang.

Appears to be a clear case of Supply and Demand. If there were other "good" silver tridents on the market the price might be less. It appears the days of picking these up on the cheap are over.  I say great.... They're beautiful badges and worthy of being valued the same as other "rare" VN insignia and patches...

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No, it's just greed. And yet, someone will probably pay those prices if they want one bad enough. I'm just wondering where one of those sellers is getting all the ones he has for sale. Thankfully I'm not on the search for these anymore.

 

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  • 3 months later...

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