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bschwartz

Need opinion on wings for website

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If you haven't noticed I'm staring to update ww2wings.com again. I got a slew of contributions from a gentleman but I would like input on the following. I have my opinion but I told the contributor I would post them out here for other's feedback as well. I'll attach photos of the front and back and the description he sent me. There are nine total. All feedback is appreciated.

 

#1

 

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Description sent:

 

FINEST AMICO TRI-PIECE MADE FLIGHT NURSE WINGS IN GOLD!

 

These are guaranteed forever to be original WWII made, issued and worn. I received a large grouping of items from the estate of a Flight Nurse at auction, but none of it was named, even the tunic, so that information is lost to History. But the wings are fantastic, with much of the gold still visible in the recessed areas of the wings. Measuring in at 2 and 1/16TH of an inch, these are a guaranteed keeper. Nicely featured wing pattern, with the "N" being a separately applied piece of metal, 100% original, aged pinback NURSE Caducei centered. Note the 90-degree opening pin assembly is solid and functional.

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#2

 

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Description sent:

 

PASQUALE WINGS FLIGHT NURSE BULLION 9TH AF GREENS TUNIC

MINT ORIGINAL, 40" XL CHEST, MEDICAL, 5 BULLION PATCHES

100% guaranteed forever original Pasquale Flight Nurse wings with the "N" being a separately applied piece of metal. Wings are sterling marked, highly detailed, finely etched. Just a micrometer width under 2 inches, 100% originals

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#3

 

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Description sent:

 

HEAVILY FEATHERED LGB PATTERN GOLD FLIGHT NURSE WINGS!

The wings are 100% guaranteed forever original Flight Nurse wings, with the etched and deeply feathered LGB pattern wing being evident. With the exception that mine are early issue GOLD, there are samples of this exact same pattern wing in post-September 1944 silver on the websites I visited. They are exactly like the LGB 3" Observer solid pattern wings in every detail, just miniaturized and feature the classic LGB style of wing design being more straight along the top, featured wing pattern (much like Vanguard, which it could also be as well), with the "N" being a separately applied piece of metal. Wings are issue unmarked as the early ones were. sterling marked, highly detailed, finely etched. Just at regulation 2 inch width. 100% original, aged pinback NURSE Cadeuce centered. Note the straight open catch. 90 degree opening pin assembly is solid and functional.

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#4

 

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Description sent:

 

As to the 3.25” OBSERVER WINGS SOLID BACK & MEGA DETAIL FEATHERS

These are OVERSIZED wings at 3 ¼ inch and have a SOLID back, Pin Back and ZERO defects. Unmarked in any way. The feathering is outstanding and along with the solid heft, peg these as upper end, private purchase wings. Way bold, nice, and well balanced with a gracious heft to them. Pin Back assembly is flawless. You will be hard pressed to find a better and more substantial looking and feeling set of wings.

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#6

 

a0178-1-observerswings.jpg

 

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Description sent:

 

HIGH-GRADE FEATHERING “LGB” PATTERN OBSERVER WINGS!

Gracious and fine is the only thing that can truly describe these wings. Solid, hefty made and beefy feeling. Nothing stamped and hollowed on the reverse. These are pure ART! No defects. Oversized at 3 & 1/8th of an inch!

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#7

 

a0282-1-britpilotwings.jpg

 

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Description sent:

 

FEATHER BEAUTY! 3 3/16TH OVERSIZED BRITISH PILOT WINGS!

Perfect! These are stamped, not recast wings - superb feather detail. One of the better looking wings that are available in WWII and theatre made. They are beauties and 100% original and guaranteed forever to be WWII vintage. Huge, thick and well made - nothing cheap. The pure hallmark of quality, Pin back functions flawlessly.

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#8

 

a0092-1-wildbombwings.jpg

 

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Description sent:

 

WILDEST PATTERN HAND-MADE HUGE OVERSIZE BOMBARDIER WINGS

FAR EASTERN THEATRE-MADE DELIGHTS! PURE ART CRAFTED!

100% guaranteed original! These wings are a true piece of art. If you have ever wanted a demonstrative piece of theatre made wings, then this is the one. Pure, never abused in any way condition. The wings look like STERLING SILVER, but are unmarked. Boy, do they really stand out. In the photos, I have taken a lot of angle shots to capture how thick and substantial these wings are. Nothing but good her. Anyone can see that this is a one-of-a-kind survivor of era craftsmanship that is unsurpassed. Overall, the dimensions are 3.2 inches .9 inches tall. Just to show you what type of quality we are talking about here, the wings come with a pair of STERLING SILVER, standard era flat faced clutches! Check out how the bomb is THREE FINNED! The work is raised and layered, so it pops out at you. Superb feathering unlike and other, and as good as it gets. If you are building a collection of the unusual, this is it! Physically impossible to upgrade over!

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I would comment but the wings have me speech less jeal0001.gif

 

Seriously: out standing wings.Thanks for posting.Some very one of a kind pieces and truely works of art in my opinion. thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gifthumbsup.gif

 

RON


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Bob,

 

I like most of them, but I won't buy, and don't like any , PASQUALE marked wings as I was told that they are being reproduced with the original dies. I like # 1 as I bid on it and lost, I just wouldn't have paid that much ;) and I like #9. The bullion on #5 looks new to me. A wise man known to both of us once told me to be very careful around the exotics, so I won't comment on 8 & 4 without giving them a personal inspection. #7 looks OK, but I personally would feel better if it had a brass pin instead of the steel one. I was told at all of the re-pop Brit wings have steel pins. That it not to say this is one of those. I'm sure John will comment on 6 and 3, so I'll leave those to the resident LGB addict er expert :D

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Paul


Paul Conrad
Still looking for quality wings!

www.conradwings.com
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I am bored prefixing everything I say with "I think" or "in my opinion".
Everything I say is my opinion; the only thing of which I am certain is that there is very little of which one can be certain.

 


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I guess it's only fair I throw my hat into the ring on these (sorry, a little WW1 humor, yes I know, very little)

 

1) Real period wing but not sure when the "N" was added. All the period nurse wings I've seen have had the enamelled "N" attached except for the Acid Test wings that have the "N" as part of the wing itself and not applied. I can't say that during the war someone just grabbed a shirt size flight surgeon and had a jeweler apply a gold "N" to it for expediency but I also can't say that a collector didn't do it after the war either. This one looks to have aged equally with the wing so I'm more willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt but still the war time Amicos that I've seen have had brown enamelled "N"s applied. There is a Dondero marked wing on my site that has an applied "N" with no enamel but it's the exception to the typical.

 

2) Any Pasquale scares me as has been noted to death in several discussions. This doesn't have the Pasquale SF hallmark that everyone accepts as war time. I'm leary of this wing.

 

3) Again, no enamelled "N". The LGB pattern had a brown enamelled "N". See my site: http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/usaafflightnurse.shtml

 

4) Very nice looking wing but the waviness in the strike of the lines across the O and the fading of the pattern toward the edges. Not comfortable and agree it would be nice to see in person.

 

5) The blue thread is out of place in my opinion. Not saying for a fact it's a repro but it's "unique".

 

6) I will defer to John on this since he's the LGB guy but in my opinion this looks like a post war wing. The hallmark doesn't seem to be quite right but I may be being over critical of this.

 

7) Hard to say for sure but I agree with Paul's comments that some of the typical period wing features are missing.

 

8) Could be a sweetheart, could be theater made, just not sure what to think of this one.

 

9) Again, I think it's a real period wing but not sure when the "N" was applied.

 

These are just my thoughts. I would love to hear more opinions.

 

Thanks,

Bob

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This is a good exercise and a reasonable illustration of why I don't invest heavily in "rare" wings. For me, it's kind of like the days I used to haunt the local antique auctions that were loaded with "period" reproductions...I determined to purchase on the basis of utility, value the piece on that basis...if I got a legitimate antique at my price, good for me, if not I still got a serviceable piece at a fair price. Missed a lot of things like that, but there was always something else coming down the pike.

 

Rather than declare that I know something about these wings in any particular depth, I would consider purchasing the wings as follows:

 

Would purchase at a fair price: 6, 7, 9.

 

Leary of it, unless well priced: 1, 2, 3, 4.

 

Simply don’ know, pass: 5.

 

Wouldn’t trust it: 8.

Paul S

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Howdy Bob, I'll play as well and offer some of my opinions.

 

Mostly I concur with the other fellers, but...

 

1) The wing looks ok, but you always have to be sort of careful with anything added. From what I can see, it looks like the "N" has the correct wear and patina to match to the rest of the wing, of all the flight nurse wings, this and the next are the two I like the best.

 

2) We had a long discussion on the Pasquale SF hallmark here ( http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=30314 ) and you can see that Pasquale Sterling was used on vintage items by this company. I also talked to a couple of my wing collecting buddies, and heard some of the story concerning the making of the Pasquale fakes. One point that was brought up was that the fake Pasquale wings had what looked to be a simple hole drilled in the shoulders of the wings (see picture below). This wing doesnt have the drill hole, but rather is cut. Also, note the different in finish with the metal. I would lean towards this one actually being good, but it is hard to know for sure with out holding in my hands.

 

3) The wing is ok, but the "N" looks to be put on off center. Also on this one, the wear does not match. So, would be leery of this one.

 

4) I would want to handle this one in person. The pattern is similar to my airship pilot wing ( http://pfrost.bol.ucla.edu/images/airship1.jpg ).

 

5) Looks fine to me, but bullion is always a question mark, but I wouldnt be unhappy with this wing in the collection.

 

6) The patina looks funky on this one.

 

7) I think this is a good wing. I have one just like it, but with a slightly different pin and catch ( http://pfrost.bol.ucla.edu/images/pilot_english.jpg ). One like this is shown in the first Pinks and Greens Book with a cotter pin attachment. A couple of advanced wing collecting buddies of mine also have similar wings and all have different pins. For some reason, who ever made them seemed to use pins and catches as they saw fit without a great deal of reason. The ones I have handled are all die struck and all have the same die faults around the lower edge of the shield. It is hard to see in some of the photos, but it is there, trust me. I would not have any issue with this wing.

 

8) I have seen similar wings in other collections. I don't think they have anything wrong with them, they are nice hand-made wings.

 

9) I like this one, but also not sure about WHEN the "N" was added.

 

So, I think that their are no obvious fakes.

 

Patrick

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Isn't it amazing on the differences in opinion so far! I'll continue watch this thread with interest! :)


Paul Conrad
Still looking for quality wings!

www.conradwings.com
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donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gif

I am bored prefixing everything I say with "I think" or "in my opinion".
Everything I say is my opinion; the only thing of which I am certain is that there is very little of which one can be certain.

 


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6) I will defer to John on this since he's the LGB guy but in my opinion this looks like a post war wing. The hallmark doesn't seem to be quite right but I may be being over critical of this.

 

Thanks,

Bob

 

 

Bob - that is a beautiful BALFOUR Observer. I think this is one of the best looking wing patterns! An elegant design with just the right amount of feathering details... overall a refined design.

 

#2 looks to be cast and of the common reproductions

 

#3 looks to be a 70's restrike

 

John


Always looking for Wings & Named Air Medals!

Motto: To Collect, Preserve, and Remember!

 

 

 

 

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Some further input on the nurse wings. Duncan's book refers to them on page 30 and depcits them on page 29 (#108, 110, 111 & 112). #110 is the Amico pattern which he does describe as having the enamelled "N". He also points out that #111 (the Acid Test pattern) wing are struck with the N as part of the die and the same color as the badge. Interstingly he says the same thing about #112 which looks like the Pasquale pattern and says that it too should have the N as part of the die although his drawing looks like the N is enamalled. Both his book has the Luxenberg pattern (#108) pictured with a solid color "N" and More Silver Wings, Pinks & Greens also shows a Lux wing with a gold "N". MSWP&G also shows an Amico and Vanguarg wing both with enamelled "N"s. Just more info to further stir the pot.

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I'm the Pasquale nut here and the font on this wing is wrong.

 

Cheers

Gary


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"YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH RED WINE, TOO MANY BOOKS, OR TOO MUCH AMMUNITION."

Rudyard Kipling

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Here is a NS Meyer's flight nurse wing that was put on a bracelet. It has an enameled brown N. Also the acid test wing with the "built in N"

 

Many years ago, I passed on a silver Vanguard flight nurse (the same pattern as #3) but with the blue enameled N because I was being a chowder-head trying to get it cheaper, and then when I went back to buy it, it was gone.

 

Patrick

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With regard to badge #2: The debate about Pasquale Uniform Co. hallmarks on different types of metal insignia will probably go on ad infinitum; however, it is a fact that Duncan Campbell went to their store in San Francisco, only to learn that the wing badges sold by them were typical Blackinton designs made by that company in their Attleboro Falls, MA factory. Each one carried a stamped “Pasquale SF” hallmark on the back … not a “Pasquale” backmark.

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Badge #2 is not a Blackinton design and shows no sign of any hard points or casting bubbles which is typical for a cast badge that has been highly polished. It’s only a guess but it looks similar to a cast wing badge legally made by *************** who used a flight nurse wing badge with a fake “Pasquale” hallmark to make the mold. See a similar match at the following website:

 

http://www.1903.com/productView.asp?productID=331

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Hi Everyone. I'm new to posting here although I have been following the discussions for some time. A great place for education!! I've been collecting for 10 years and have been burned a few times, mostly at shows and by "reputable" dealers. Live and learn. I have emailed Patrick off and on for several years and appreciate his help and willingness to share his knowledge on the subject.

 

As for wing #7, I have one EXACTLY like it that I obtained from an estate sale of a CBI pilot. I got his crusher as well. I tend to agree with Patrick that it is OK since I am certain that this sale had no adulterated material in it. Is it possible that the wing was made in Austrailia or India?


Private Elisha Leake, Company G, 73rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, 11th Army Corps, KIA, Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863 Great Great Uncle

 

Sgt. Isaac Willis, Company G, 73rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, 11th Army Corps, KIA, Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863 Great Great Uncle

 

You Are Not Forgotten

 

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Hi Everyone. I'm new to posting here although I have been following the discussions for some time. A great place for education!! I've been collecting for 10 years and have been burned a few times, mostly at shows and by "reputable" dealers. Live and learn. I have emailed Patrick off and on for several years and appreciate his help and willingness to share his knowledge on the subject.

 

As for wing #7, I have one EXACTLY like it that I obtained from an estate sale of a CBI pilot. I got his crusher as well. I tend to agree with Patrick that it is OK since I am certain that this sale had no adulterated material in it. Is it possible that the wing was made in Austrailia or India?

 

Can you post a picture? I could very well be a CBI piece ( most of the odd balls are). And Cliff I KNEW I had seen that somewhere!! (Badge #2 is not a Blackinton design and shows no sign of any hard points or casting bubbles which is typical for a cast badge that has been highly polished. It’s only a guess but it looks similar to a cast wing badge legally made by *************** who used a flight nurse wing badge with a fake “Pasquale” hallmark to make the mold. See a similar match at the following website)


Paul Conrad
Still looking for quality wings!

www.conradwings.com
donation2007.gifdonation2008.gif
donation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gifdonation2012.gif
donation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gif

I am bored prefixing everything I say with "I think" or "in my opinion".
Everything I say is my opinion; the only thing of which I am certain is that there is very little of which one can be certain.

 


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Can you post a picture? I could very well be a CBI piece ( most of the odd balls are). And Cliff I KNEW I had seen that somewhere!! (Badge #2 is not a Blackinton design and shows no sign of any hard points or casting bubbles which is typical for a cast badge that has been highly polished. It’s only a guess but it looks similar to a cast wing badge legally made by *************** who used a flight nurse wing badge with a fake “Pasquale” hallmark to make the mold. See a similar match at the following website)

 

I will try to post pictures tonight. The pin and catch on mine are exactly like Patrick's.


Private Elisha Leake, Company G, 73rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, 11th Army Corps, KIA, Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863 Great Great Uncle

 

Sgt. Isaac Willis, Company G, 73rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, 11th Army Corps, KIA, Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863 Great Great Uncle

 

You Are Not Forgotten

 

donation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

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With regard to badge #2: The debate about Pasquale Uniform Co. hallmarks on different types of metal insignia will probably go on ad infinitum; however, it is a fact that Duncan Campbell went to their store in San Francisco, only to learn that the wing badges sold by them were typical Blackinton designs made by that company in their Attleboro Falls, MA factory. Each one carried a stamped “Pasquale SF” hallmark on the back … not a “Pasquale” backmark.

think.gif

Badge #2 is not a Blackinton design and shows no sign of any hard points or casting bubbles which is typical for a cast badge that has been highly polished. It’s only a guess but it looks similar to a cast wing badge legally made by *************** who used a flight nurse wing badge with a fake “Pasquale” hallmark to make the mold. See a similar match at the following website:

 

http://www.1903.com/productView.asp?productID=331

 

It seems I did not take a close enough look at the wings, and it seems pretty compelling at this point that the wings are reproductions. Still, sometimes it is hard to tell without holding them in one's hands.

 

P

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