mortaydc60 Posted September 21, 2020 Share #1 Posted September 21, 2020 Just found these on ebay and wanted to alert the forum to these recent reproductions. These look OK from the front for the most part but the back is what gives this away. Has the same look with the loose horizontal weave they use on the reproduction SVN patches. The starting price on these os over $200,just fair warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted September 21, 2020 Author Share #2 Posted September 21, 2020 I could be wrong on this but something does not look correct,would like others to give thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocsfollowme Posted September 21, 2020 Share #3 Posted September 21, 2020 I would not touch them. Funny that they are coming from Australia so technically they still may be Australian made White on the diamonds are too thick Base material has to be a polymer nylon of some sort Front red diamond is computerized stitching Backs are not like any other WW2 example Glued into an album within the last year and pulled out. Sketchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted September 21, 2020 Share #4 Posted September 21, 2020 How about the diamonds (rotated squares) aren’t square? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted September 23, 2020 Author Share #5 Posted September 23, 2020 Was checking some old posts and found these from Garth who was a terrific person and smart collector that brings my assertion into question. The posts are from Oct 2011 and post concerned Aussie made 1st div patches. not sure how to place his post into this discussion. His pics of the backs of the patches sure look like what I posted above as questionable and he thinks are good Need some help here please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUBUSMC Posted September 24, 2020 Share #6 Posted September 24, 2020 I think they are good. They look very much like real examples that I have seen and owned. Semper Fi - Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUBUSMC Posted September 24, 2020 Share #7 Posted September 24, 2020 42 minutes ago, CUBUSMC said: I think they are good. They look very much like real examples that I have seen and owned. Semper Fi - Jeff They just appear to have never had the white cheese cloth applied to the backs like the majority you see. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted September 24, 2020 Appreciate your feedback and hope more chime in with opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Scott Posted September 24, 2020 Share #9 Posted September 24, 2020 They are reproductions and have been around for quite awhile.I have never seen one with a backing and in hand they just do not feel right.Good eye Mort.Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted September 24, 2020 Share #10 Posted September 24, 2020 They match the same construction as the ones Garth posted. Does that mean that Garth's were fake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted September 25, 2020 Author Share #11 Posted September 25, 2020 That is why I am asking; Garth was a top notch collector and not easily fooled. Do we have more Marine experts to opine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John4022 Posted September 25, 2020 Share #12 Posted September 25, 2020 I'm no expert but I like them. Here's my Aussie Raider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share #13 Posted October 3, 2020 Not sure this helps but it makes my original claim not look too good .Found this post in the pinned post for rarest Marine patches. In the post it shows that under the canvas backing what we thought was bad was actually good. Missed a great opportunity to get these fairly reasonable. On 1/5/2010 at 1:20 AM, JimmCapp said: This Raider version went for a paltry $341 from the same seller on the same day, probably because of condition. The pictures show a good example of what the stitching should look like on the reverse on an original, underneath the backing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUBUSMC Posted October 4, 2020 Share #14 Posted October 4, 2020 Agreed, I still believe they are 100% original. They just have not been cut and had the cheese cloth applied. They went for $214 each which after looking at sold auctions appears to be much cheaper than they usually go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-X Posted October 6, 2020 Share #15 Posted October 6, 2020 On 9/25/2020 at 4:28 AM, CUBUSMC said: They just appear to have never had the white cheese cloth applied to the backs like the majority you see. Just my opinion. FYI, I can tell you unequivocally the some J&J Cash made USMC patches had Black cheese cloth on their rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share #16 Posted October 6, 2020 Thanks for that information, but could you help with the question posed which is are the patches posted good examples or reproductions? By the way this is the first time I have heard and never seen a Black cheesecloth example in the US. could you post a picture? Here in the US we only have seen the white cheesecloth or canvas backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne-Hunter Posted October 6, 2020 Share #17 Posted October 6, 2020 The pieces in question look to be unfinished. They are uncut in the sense their shape is wrong. The white cloth on the back is/was a finishing touch to prevent snagging of the threads on the back. The raider piece linked above shows identical manufacturing underneath when the cloth comes off. Original and unfinished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share #18 Posted October 6, 2020 Thanks very much for the input. To be clear here so we all can all understand,you are saying these are good pieces not reproductions,they are just unfinished patches, because they do not having the cloth backing placed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John4022 Posted October 7, 2020 Share #19 Posted October 7, 2020 8 hours ago, mortaydc60 said: By the way this is the first time I have heard and never seen a Black cheesecloth example in the US. could you post a picture? Here in the US we only have seen the white cheesecloth or canvas backs. I believe I have only seen a black backed 1st Marine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortaydc60 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share #20 Posted October 7, 2020 Thanks so much for posting. Here is what I usually see which is the white back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted October 7, 2020 Share #21 Posted October 7, 2020 14 hours ago, Mr-X said: FYI, I can tell you unequivocally the some J&J Cash made USMC patches had Black cheese cloth on their rear. I have seen and owned both white and black muslin backed 1st Marine Division patches that are Austrailian made. Wasnt there another war time Aussie firm who made patches as well in this style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted October 7, 2020 Share #22 Posted October 7, 2020 12 hours ago, Airborne-Hunter said: The pieces in question look to be unfinished. They are uncut in the sense their shape is wrong. The white cloth on the back is/was a finishing touch to prevent snagging of the threads on the back. The raider piece linked above shows identical manufacturing underneath when the cloth comes off. Original and unfinished. Many years ago I spoke to a collector in Australia. He mentioned he had a uncut roll of 50 or the raider patches. Appears they were done in a strip much like the german insignias were then cut off individually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted October 7, 2020 Share #23 Posted October 7, 2020 On 10/3/2020 at 6:46 PM, mortaydc60 said: Not sure this helps but it makes my original claim not look too good .Found this post in the pinned post for rarest Marine patches. In the post it shows that under the canvas backing what we thought was bad was actually good. Missed a great opportunity to get these fairly reasonable. The area of threads at the upper left and lower right is something I have always looked for on original Aussie made wovens. When the Raider repros came out ( I recall made in Japan in the 80s or 90s) they lacked the threads and this was a red flag at the time but many over looked it.They were nice but just a little to nice and some thought just a "variation but they were fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-X Posted October 9, 2020 Share #24 Posted October 9, 2020 On 10/7/2020 at 4:33 PM, doyler said: I have seen and owned both white and black muslin backed 1st Marine Division patches that are Austrailian made. Wasnt there another war time Aussie firm who made patches as well in this style? I have a pics of a blacked backed version on my computer somewhere. I’ll locate them and post. My understanding is that J&J Cash were the only manufacturer of cloth USMC insignia in Australia that used that process. But that’s only my knowledge. J&J Cash’s machinery produced a ‘Bevo’ style patch (they produced insignia in this style for the Australian Army from the mid 40’s to the late 80’s). All insignia was made on a continuous roll. Hence the two cut edges. Because they were hand cut there is some variation in the shape due to the angle the patch was cut. I suspect that the backing was to ‘beef’ up the patch as the material was quite thin. Attached is a picture of an Australian Army overseas service patch worn during the Vietnam war (and after) that was made by J&J Cash by the same process. Notice that the vertical edges of the patch are the same as the USMC patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintageproductions Posted October 27, 2020 Share #25 Posted October 27, 2020 Well, I have had to sit back and watch this thread and keep my opinions to myself, until these three patches I won on Ebay were delivered, which they were last night. In my personal opinion some people on this thread owe the seller an apology. These patches were attacked instantly and I think because of it, people were scared to bid on them. I wasn't as I knew as soon as I look at the photos the patches were without a doubt real. I guess I should actually be thankful as I got to buy them for the bargain opening bids. While people were attacking if they were real, did anyone go back and look at the past auctions this seller had completed? Obviously not, or you wouldn't have been slagging them off. This seller had purchased the sample books from J Kash and were little by little selling off the patches. Maybe it's just me but when I see the seller is selling the sample pieces from the biggest patch maker in that area, I have no problem bidding Also the comment about the glue being brand new is ridiculous, you could see in the photo it was old glue stains, and in person it is even more evident the dried glue was very old. This is another example if you are going to call out an piece for being fake, make sure you know they are fake and can prove it without a shadow of doubt, or if you are a buyer, do your home work and double check before you just accept someone on the internet saying something is fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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