USMC P41 Patch Pocket Trousers: Were they the first trouser variant issued to marines in WW2?

[SouthShore 8754]

Thanks for posting the P42's with the size markings. I think the photo of your jacket confirms reuscher's point that the Q.M Depot made camouflaged uniforms. Is that the only set of P42's you've seen that have been size marked? 

['Flage Guy]

Yes- if memory serves, I've never seen any other 1942 'Flage Utilities components which were stamped like that. Have another Suit which is stoned mint, never washed or worn, and I had to measure armpit-to-armpit and across the waist to deduce its size (40 Coat, 34 Trousers). No stampings anywhere that I can see- probably should check them again to make sure; sometimes size stamps are placed at very odd places.

['Flage Guy]

Southshore: Size stamp alert! Here is a shot of a '42 Coat I saw on Ebay some time ago...

['Flage Guy]

Here is the back side; this was a nice one- looks mint!

['Flage Guy]

Below is another which belongs to a friend. I love these 'Flage items which have a range of different dye shades used. 👍 👍 👍

[SouthShore 8754]

Wow, that last example is awesome. Color variation and size marked.  I'm there with you, I love seeing the frogskin uniforms that have different patterns and colors. Definitely shows that quality control wasn't quite there yet back then. Thanks for digging those out and sharing. Its also nice to see more examples of the depot style marked uniforms added to the discussion.

 

I was scrolling through an older thread about slitted vs. non-slitted USMC covers and found this post tucked away in there. USMC Camp Helmet Cover Manufacturing.....BINGO

 

The author of grunt gear wrote:

 

" Finally after how many freaking years...... Marine Corps HQ Bulletin article about USMC Depot lists their production of camouflage helmet covers in 1944 at 1,125,140 quantity........ also have a photo of depot making usmc cam uniforms." 

 

Wish I had found this earlier, since the QM depot had manufactured 1,125,140 marine corps helmet covers in 1944, they could have manufactured the P42 and P44 camouflage uniforms in much larger numbers. I couldn't find the photo of the depot manufacturing the camo uniforms, that Alec mentioned.  Have you seen that photo before? Not sure if it ever was posted. 

['Flage Guy]

No, I sure haven't seen those photos. I'm leaning toward the possibility that all of the '42 Suits, which Tulkoff estimates at 130,000 total production, were made up at the Depot. He also estimates that the total number of ParaMarine Utilities at a mere 3-5,000, which would be a big factor in the reasons for their scarcity...especially the pants!!!!

 

On that subject, here are some more Marine 'Flage Uniform size stamps. This Suit was discovered in a sizeable pile of Aviation stuff bought by a Forum member some time ago...I offered to take it off his hands, but he politely declined 😄 The Coat and Trousers, both in mint condition, are name-stamped to the same guy!!

['Flage Guy]

Speaking of color variants, the One-Piece Jungle Suit is one of the best sources of study on that subject! ☺️

Every Suit below is noticeably different from the others...they get as color-crazy as the Marines' Shelter Halves!

[SouthShore 8754]

On 11/30/2020 at 1:44 AM, 'Flage Guy said:

No, I sure haven't seen those photos. I'm leaning toward the possibility that all of the '42 Suits, which Tulkoff estimates at 130,000 total production, were made up at the Depot. He also estimates that the total number of ParaMarine Utilities at a mere 3-5,000, which would be a big factor in the reasons for their scarcity...especially the pants!!!!

 

On that subject, here are some more Marine 'Flage Uniform size stamps. This Suit was discovered in a sizeable pile of Aviation stuff bought by a Forum member some time ago...I offered to take it off his hands, but he politely declined 😄 The Coat and Trousers, both in mint condition, are name-stamped to the same guy!!

 

Cant forget the para marine uniforms! Thanks for sharing more size stamped examples.

 

With all those different dye color variations, you really can't have just one of those Jungle Suits! 

 

 

That is interesting that you think that the depot manufactured all of the P42 camouflage utilities. Puts a whole new perspective on the subject.

 

What are your thoughts on the Mario Maribelli company manufacturing the P42 uniforms and camouflage uniforms in general? Do you happen to know if the author of Grunt Gear has changed his mind about Mirabelli manufacturing the P42 uniforms?

['Flage Guy]

1 hour ago, SouthShore 8754 said:

 

Cant forget the para marine uniforms! Thanks for sharing more size stamped examples.

 

With all those different dye color variations, you really can't have just one of those Jungle Suits! 

 

 

That is interesting that you think that the depot manufactured all of the P42 camouflage utilities. Puts a whole new perspective on the subject.

 

What are your thoughts on the Mario Maribelli company manufacturing the P42 uniforms and camouflage uniforms in general? Do you happen to know if the author of Grunt Gear has changed his mind about Mirabelli manufacturing the P42 uniforms?

 

The only reason I went after most of those One-Piece Suits was the color variations 😁 And they are a lot more affordable than '42s/Para Suits!!

 

I went back and re-read the section in "Grunt Gear" about '42 Suit production, and I misquoted Tulkoff- he put the total production of '42s at 120,000, not 130,000...my bad 😬

 

Also, he credited Mirabelli with the '42s, as well as the other models. Alec is a lot more well-researched and knowledgeable than I am on this subject, so I'd best not be so quick to throw out my theories on these things. And, it could well be that they were made at the Mirabelli firm and the Depot; Reusher makes a good point about that. 

[SouthShore 8754]

 

5 hours ago, 'Flage Guy said:

 

The only reason I went after most of those One-Piece Suits was the color variations 😁 And they are a lot more affordable than '42s/Para Suits!!

 

I went back and re-read the section in "Grunt Gear" about '42 Suit production, and I misquoted Tulkoff- he put the total production of '42s at 120,000, not 130,000...my bad 😬

 

Also, he credited Mirabelli with the '42s, as well as the other models. Alec is a lot more well-researched and knowledgeable than I am on this subject, so I'd best not be so quick to throw out my theories on these things. And, it could well be that they were made at the Mirabelli firm and the Depot; Reusher makes a good point about that. 

 

 No worries, the reason I asked whether or not he had any change of opinion on the subject was due to that post from several years ago about the Q.M depot manufacturing the helmet covers. I saw from other posts that he was pretty active on the forum several years ago, so I didn't know if any more thoughts on this topic were discussed. 

 

I also agree from reading all these posts, that the depot and Mirabelli manufactured the utilities. I think Reuscher's posts were pretty accurate as well, after reading everything through again.

 

 

"The only reason I went after most of those One-Piece Suits was the color variations 😁 And they are a lot more affordable than '42s/Para Suits!!

 

---Just wondering, how much did these uniforms (P42's, para marine uniforms) used to cost several years ago? I'm sure at one point in the past they were somewhat affordable to acquire and didn't cost thousands of dollars? When did the stuff start to really increase in value.?

['Flage Guy]

7 hours ago, SouthShore 8754 said:

"The only reason I went after most of those One-Piece Suits was the color variations 😁 And they are a lot more affordable than '42s/Para Suits!!

 

---Just wondering, how much did these uniforms (P42's, para marine uniforms) used to cost several years ago? I'm sure at one point in the past they were somewhat affordable to acquire and didn't cost thousands of dollars? When did the stuff start to really increase in value.?

 I bought my first '42 Suit at a show in Dallas, Tx. in Jan. 1990 for $300.00 (below). Most average collectors were just becoming aware of the Para Utilities and Smocks back then, and they carried a real aura of mystery about them; it was the same with the M1941 Canteen Covers. There were hardly any detailed reference books around, until Jim Moran's book hit the market.

As people became more educated and serious about seeking out desirable stuff like 'flaged H.B.T., the prices steadily rose to where we are today. I remember being shocked to learn that U.S. W.W.II camo could be found, and that guys were paying up to.."gasp"...$300.00 just for the Jacket/Coat if it was in nice shape  At the time, I thought that was insane...but recently I paid 2 grand for a minter-than-mint '42 Coat (sz.40), and a little over 4 Gs for a pair of near-mint ParaPants (sz.36X32), and about 25 years ago spent 900 bucks putting together the experimental Army 'Flage-Reversible-to-O.D. Suit. 
So I guess I have joined the ranks of the insane...but for me, collecting is pretty much done after being blessed with those top-drawer items 😊

[Art M]

About the P41 patched pocket trousers,

in the book "USMC uniforms & equipment 1941-45", the authors refer to them as first type utility trousers & the one with the one piece waistband the second pattern utility trousers.

here are pictures of the pages:

[PQD]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:33 AM, 'Flage Guy said:

Below is another which belongs to a friend. I love these 'Flage items which have a range of different dye shades used. 👍 👍 👍

 

I'm the friend and this is my set!  You are deeply missed, Flage Guy!

[PQD]

On 9/19/2020 at 9:52 PM, SouthShore 8754 said:

I haven't been able to find much information on the USMC P41 "Third Pattern" trousers that had the patch pockets. There is only one post on the forum that shows a picture of these and the post only mentions they were the "Third Pattern". Does any one  know if the third pattern with the patch pockets was the first style to be issued to marines early in the war or were they issued along with the other variants (1st, 2nd patterns) around the same time? I'd greatly appreciate some input on this, as there is not much information about these trousers online and they don't seem to pop up as often as the other  1st, 2nd and 4th pattern variants.

 

I'll post some photos below that show this third pattern variant being worn throughout the war. Just thought I'd ask because Harlan Glenn's book and Grunt Gear make no mention as to if they were the earliest variant that was issued to the marines. There is also a Marine Corps document from WW2 that a forum member posted in the past that only mentions they were a third pattern variant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are first-model HBT dungarees, the only type you will see being worn in PTO combat in 1942-43.  

 

I have a pristine coat and trousers that are dated 1942 with cutter tags:  the coat is contractor made and the contract is dated June 1942, while the trousers are depot-made with the 1942 date appearing only on the cutter tags.  I'll post photos of this in this thread separately.  

 

Coats and trousers lacking a contractor label or ink stamp can indeed be deemed to have been made by the USMC QM Depot.  I have never seen the patch-pocket HBT dungarees with a contractor label, which points to these being produced by the USMC QM Depot, but that cannot be a conclusive position based on this information alone.  I do not see why contractors would not have made the HBT dungaree trousers, but it is possible that some manufacturing detail precluded contractors from being involved in their production, such as that they lacked knowledge of some technique, sewing machine, were too busy, or just not able to get up to speed fast enough; we see this with the U. S. Army 1st-model Parachutist Coats and Trousers (so-called Yarborough suits or M-1941 suits, where all were made by the PQD).

 

I do not know the manufacturing capabilities of the USMC QM Depot in 1941-43, but to think they had the manpower to produce all of the HBT dungaree trousers for the USMC, in addition to many other gear and clothing items, would be very impressive.  

 

 

[PQD]

This is the set I mentioned, with the coat being contractor produced (contract dated June 30, 1942 on neck label) and the trousers being depot made and dated June 1942 on the cutter tags.  

[Art M]

Amazing set!

[CoralFang]

Recently have put eyes on two of what I am assuming are reproduction/costume house made P41 patch pockets. Any input is welcome

[PQD]

16 hours ago, CoralFang said:

Recently have put eyes on two of what I am assuming are reproduction/costume house made P41 patch pockets. Any input is welcome

 

Cheap, postwar costumes, nothing more.