Extra Large 4 1/2 “ 1920s AAC Bullion Wing on black wool

[guerrap]

Up for discussion is this quite large bullion wing.  When I first had it in hand several years ago, it was so large, I didn’t initially believe it could have been authentic.  After examining the quality detail of the bullion more closely and also the detail of the rickrack on the back, it seemed authentic to me.  I have seen other 1920’s wings that are large, but not quite the size of this example and I have not seen any other example quite like this one.  Therefore, I offer it now for discussion.

[BILL THE PATCH]

Could it be a salesman's sample?

Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

[pfrost]

I suspect that it is from a CBI-made purse of pillow sham.  These oversized wings were made on various items for sale after the war.  They are usually on a velvet or satin type fabric and are oversized.

 

I believe that is what this is, a wing decoration that was cut off the front of a woman's purse.

[juvatwad]

So is 4” the likely cut off size for a worn wing of this era?

[B-17Guy]

4 hours ago, juvatwad said:

So is 4” the likely cut off size for a worn wing of this era?

No, standard Naval Aviator wing is 2 3/4”.

[juvatwad]

Right, but I recently posted a uniform here with a 4" bullion wing from this era. So, I'm asking if there is a size cut off beyond which a wing would definitely have not been worn on a uniform (ie 4" wings are OK, but 4 1/2" wings were decorative)?

[guerrap]

Concerning specifically the US Army Air Service and early US Army Air Corps bullion wings of the 1920’s and 1930’s, I don’t believe absolutes are assumptions that should be made concerning length.

 

I did want to follow-up on my original post with more data for consideration.  The data revolves around a three key points including:  

 

Point 1 - Because of the depleted Air Service end strength post WWI, as has been pointed out on this Forum, there are very few comparative bullion examples.

 

Point 2 - The size of some of these bullion examples are not only quite large, but also the difference between the original wing I posted (4 1/2 inches) and another example I own is negligible when laid over one another as seen below, photos 1 and 2 below.  For the record, my second bullion wing measures 4 1/16 inches in length. 
 

Point 3 - rustywings provided a very nice example semi recently on another post

and the construction specific to the back side (the way the black material is folded over exposing the rickrack) is similarly constructed. I have provided that comparison below (mine on top, photo 3 below, and rustywings on bottom, photo 4 below.

[pfrost]

Well, its clear that no one wants to believe my "CBI-made" purse theory.  Your wings and your collection and I won't quibble too much if you want to believe that they are a 20's variation.

 

But... See this past conversation, especially the later posts: 

 

Years ago at one of the Great Western Gun Shows I walked in on a Friday and saw a guy selling a beautiful black velvet woman's purse. On the flap was an extra large bullion pilot wing land on the back was a bullion CBI patch (in just silver bullion) and some bullion fancy scroll work. The wing was just like the one shown. The dealer was asking about 100$ for the purse.

 

On the next day, the purse was gone but at the next table was the same extra-large bullion wing and variation CBI patch its own special riker's mount (according to tag, the patch/wing said the set was a rare variation of bullion that had belonged to the to CO of a famous "flying tiger" squadron). You could still see the excess fabric. The dealer was asking about 250$ for the set.

 

The next day, sewn on a nicely named USAAF jacket, was the same extra-large bullion wing and "super-rare variation" CBI patch, a nice ribbon bar, a ricker's mount of medals and some rank insignia and a squadron patch (which may have been a fake). The dealer was asking about 1000$ for the grouping.

 

A true story!

 

Here is the type of velvet embroidered CBI-made purses that were available in the CBI will into the 50's and 60's.  This one has a winged prop, and another with the CBI SSI patch.

 

That isn't to totally discount the 1920's theory of these wings, but note the similarity in the bullion type work.  IMHO, classic WWII-postWWII CBI bullion craftsmanship.

 

 

[guerrap]

Patrick,

 

Your points are always well taken and I do see where you are coming from.  That’s why this Forum exists, in part, to share information.  Two more points.  

Point 1 - The material on those CBI purses and other similar CBI items is a velvet material.  This wing I offered is not black velvet, but more of a standard wool material.

 

Point 2 - The design / shape of the shoulders on the two bullion wings I offered are similar, but completely different design / shape than the CBI bullion wings you have provided.

 

Thanks for the dialogue and exchange of information on this one.

 

Pete

[pfrost]

Dont get me wrong, its a beauty of a wing.  It honestly really doesn't matter what I think (or don't think).  It is super nice.  Cool beans and thanks for sharing.

[guerrap]

Thank you Patrick and my pleasure!

[B-17Guy]

18 hours ago, B-17Guy said:

No, standard Naval Aviator wing is 2 3/4”.

Sorry, not even an Aviator discussion...I guess proof positive that you shouldn’t comment on discussions when you wake up at 0300, lol 🤦🏼‍♂️

[rustywings]

On 9/2/2020 at 2:33 PM, guerrap said:

Patrick,

 

Your points are always well taken and I do see where you are coming from.  That’s why this Forum exists, in part, to share information.  Two more points.  

Point 1 - The material on those CBI purses and other similar CBI items is a velvet material.  This wing I offered is not black velvet, but more of a standard wool material.

 

Point 2 - The design / shape of the shoulders on the two bullion wings I offered are similar, but completely different design / shape than the CBI bullion wings you have provided.

 

Thanks for the dialogue and exchange of information on this one.

 

Pete

 

 

Pete, your "two points" are well taken and can't be ignored. The USAAC bullion Pilot wings produced in the 1920's were made in a "wide" variety of widths and designs. It wasn't until later in that decade and into the 1930's that we see more of a standardization in Pilot wing size. 

 

Even though I'd like to see a bit more age and patina on that presumed ninety-plus year old bullion, the embroidery and early off-white cheesecloth construction depicted on the back sure speaks volumes with me.  Your oversize example compares favorably with other early oversize bullion wings...

 

 

[cwnorma]

16 minutes ago, rustywings said:

The USAAC bullion Pilot wings produced in the 1920's were made in a "wide" variety of widths and designs....

 

Russ,

 

I see what you did there 🤣

 

Seriously, absolutely love seeing these outstandingly rare between-the-wars examples!  

 

I think many (even among collectors!) don't realize how small the Air Service was after 1920 and before the build up in 1940.  Examination of these two "lost decades" is a fascinating study of a vanishingly few brave men--constantly pushing the bounds of the possible.

 

Thank you all for sharing, I know I have learned a lot from this thread.

 

Cheers!

 

Chris

[guerrap]

Russ,

 

Thank you for your comments and my goodness, what an impressive representation of “between the wars” bullion wings you have presented on this thread.  You really have some fantastic ones in your collection!  Thank you for the two great photos with all your variations!
 

Pete