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My Great Grandfather's Naval Sword


crazyfingers
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aerialbridge
6 hours ago, crazyfingers said:

What makes you think that it may be of 1920-1930's vintage?

 

The pristine condition and the black leather case that looks like ones I've seen for post- World War One swords makes me think your sword may be more recent than 1890s or early 1900s when your great-grandfather presumably would have bought his.   Since you located the name engraving, some might weigh in on that style of font and what period it was used.   The top photo is a World War I  era sword owned by member kanemono from a post he did on the Navy Cross group to a mustang who became a chief boatswain (warrant officer) in 1909 and temporary appointment as ensign during World War One.  The font, which I'd characterize as Art Deco- influenced  is the same one as for my g-uncle's World War One naval sword, which he purchased through the Army Navy Cooperative in Philadelphia.   Although I'd assume that your grandfather who graduated Annapolis in 1926 had a sword, absent some additional evidence,  I wouldn't assume it went down with submarine USS Shark in that fateful, early World War Two combat patrol.  WWII subs were really cramped and I doubt officers brought their ceremonial swords on combat patrols.   While I suspect that my uncle likely had his sword on USS Arizona during WWI since the battleship was relegated to ceremonial and training duty off the Eastern seaboard,  I'm reasonably confident he did not take it with him when he went to North Sea mine laying duty or have it on his mine-layer, USS Saranac, at Hampton Roads, Virginia when  Saranac caught fire in the middle of a cold January night in 1919 a couple weeks after returning from Europe and only the day after all the mines had been offloaded.  The fire started in the wardroom  and the sleeping officers made it out in their sleeping clothes. I could be all wet, and your sword may well be your great-grandfather's rather than your grandfather's, which I believe would be just as historic.   I'd be surprised if there are not sword experts out there that could distinguish whether your ancestor's sword is circa 1900 or 1930. 

USS Arizona World War One Sword.jpg

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aerialbridge

The apartment building in the "Hell's Kitchen" area of Manhattan where my great uncle was living 100 years ago, with his sword, watch and medals.  A world away from the small town in Blue Earth County,  Minnesota he left in 1910 when he moved to NYC.  After he got married in 1926 to a Georgia transplant,  they moved to Ocean Ave. in Brooklyn.  In the mid 30's they bought their house on Coolidge Ave. in Queens where he spent the rest of his life, working as a registry clerk in the Manhattan Post Office.    During the Second World War he was an air raid warden and converted his garage into a first aid station.   I'm sure seeing the newsreels of USS Arizona turned into a burning wreck and tomb for most of her crew at Pearl Harbor was a bitter pill for my uncle to swallow.  

463_W._43rd_St._Hells_Kitchen_NY.png

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crazyfingers

I think that for the time being, unless some super sword expert comes along and can definitively date it, I'll assume that it is my great grandfather's sword given that my uncle has no doubts and that there is no "Jr" after Shane even though there would be room with that font and size. If it has been in that case for over 100 years I don't know why it wouldn't still be like new.

 

I do wonder about the lack of a maker/dealer mark and the incredible faintness of the engraving of the name. I wonder if the two go together. Perhaps he purchased a stock sword and had the engraving done himself? Then again, he was in the engineering track at the Academy. He would have had access to tools needed to make the mark more legible. I don't know.

 

I may go though again all of the old papers that my grandmother kept. I am wondering if I have anything formal that my grandfather signed and see if he added the Jr. I've seen letters he sent to my grandfather and he's just sign them Louis as there would be no need to add the jr. on letters to his wife. That box does not appear to be here at my house. I'll need to check my parent's house. There is all assorted stuff in there. Even hat wouldn't be definitive though.

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aerialbridge

Do you happen to have any records of how tall your great-grandfather and grandfather were?   Reason I ask is that the sword seems to be a bit shorter than the  typical  35" from stem to stern like mine is.    I'm guessing yours is about 31" which would indicate its owner was perhaps shorter.  

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crazyfingers

I don't have any record on their height so far as I know. The blade of the sword is 28" and the whole thing is 33".

 

All I have to go on is this photo with Louis Jr on the Left, his wife next and then Louis Sr in back of her. Not much to go on.

L Shane jr Margorie, Capt Shane Anabell Wilson and others...jpg

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It is difficult to date these thin-bladed M1852s.  Most turn-of-the-century swords have the retailer/outfitters name stamped on the reverse ricasso, and this usually provides a clue, but for some reason the outfit who sold your sword didn’t.  The genuine ray skin grip suggests an earlier date.   Although they continued to use genuine skin in later swords, post-WWI swords tended to increasingly use synthetic material.  Here is an example sword made by Ames and retailed by Jacob Reeds Sons in about 1910 – is seems quite like your sword.

 

image.png.36f3e7ae86e2df143f8af8a9390439cb.png

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Sorry about the double posting.  For some reason the program pulled up my pervious post and re-posted it.

 

Ray skin is the pebbly-surfaced skin of some types of stingrays.  It is rather expensive.  You can still get it on Navy swords sold by  Marlow White as a $150 extra.

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