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My Great Grandfather's Naval Sword


crazyfingers
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crazyfingers

I was able to visit my uncle who formally passed down to me my great grandfather's naval sward. His name is Louis Shane (Sr) and was graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1898 time to serve in the Philippine Insurrection and Spanish American war in Cuba and later WWI. aerialbridge wrote a nice historical post here as background.

 

20200818_182820b.jpg

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crazyfingers

Here is a close up indicating USN. Unfortunately my great grandfather appears to have never gotten it engraved. Are there other marking I should look for?

20200818_191340a.jpg

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crazyfingers
22 minutes ago, FriarChuck said:

I would love to see some pictures of the blade engraving (it it has any) It’s been pretty standard for years but it’s neat to see different manufacturers take on the designs. Also at the base of the blade near the hilt there should be makers marks that tell you which company made it. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Friar

 

There very detailed but faint swirly engravings about 80% the length of the blade on both sides. I'll see if there is a way to photograph them such that they can be seen. I don't see an obvious manufacturer mark but will keep looking.

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crazyfingers

Would it be inappropriate if I were to get the sword engraved with my great grandfathers name 122 years after he would have purchased it I presume upon graduation as an officer from Annapolis?

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crazyfingers

Photo of my Great Grandfather at graduation I believe. It would be nice if I could see the sward 122 years ago in this photo.

Ensign Louis Shane Sr.jpg

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aerialbridge

I can relate to your joy at having your great-grandfather's sword.   I have only one "blade" in my relatively small collection of mostly medals, but it's hands-down my favorite item.  It's my mustang great-uncle's WWI  Navy M1852 sword and scabbard.  Yup, the "proverbial great uncle" whose scattered stuff many guys search for like the Holy Grail.   I'm fortunate that he decided to have it "factory etched" with his initials and last name 100 years ago.   It's "saltier" than your pristine ancestor's blade which the case protected for 120 years, but mine was well enough preserved inside its scabbard.    My uncle and his wife had no kids, and that probably spared it a lot of wear and tear (How about John Paul Jones for Halloween?  Arghh!) along with not  being stuck in an attic or garage for decades.  The leather scabbards of old swords are often found dried out, cracked and damaged, but this one is in superb shape with no issues.   I display it,  with my wife's blessing, along with his 1920-21 Elgin that he also had factory engraved with his monogram, medals and three studio portraits in uniform, two head shots and one full length.     My two cents is do not have the sword engraved with your ancestor's initials.  And this is from a guy who is not adverse to replacing tattered and stained ribbons on a medal with period replacement ribbon which many US medal collectors shudder and cringe at the very thought.    Engraving the sword is irreversible.  Conservation or restoration is one thing-- polish to remove rust,  put light wax on the blade to prevent rust and perhaps mink oil on the scabbard to keep it from drying out, but definitely don't engrave it now.   The gold braid on the hilt with the knot is called the portepee.   The one on my sword is original and my uncle probably tied the knot.   It's also really old and worn.  I thought about one minute whether to replace it with an old period one in nicer shape.   No way.  

 

I would suggest you buy a nice display case,  perhaps have a small plaque engraved as I did, and display your great-grandfather's sword proudly.  Now more than ever.   Enjoy seeing it every day  and the great, tangible  family history of service you are very fortunate to have.   You could buy swords owned by other people's ancestors til the cows come home,  but having an attributed sword to your blood ancestor, that you will pass down to your boys?  Priceless IMO and a great conversation piece.  When my uncle requested duty in the "War Zone", they pulled him from NTS Newport where he was training boots and put him on the Arizona commanding a 5 inch gun crew.   Better than shore duty, but still hardly combat since Arizona spent WWI cruising off New York doing training and ceremonial duty because she was near new in 1918 and deemed too valuable to lose to U-Boats.  But my uncle got his wish the last couple months of the war when he was detached from AZ to  "over there"  to join Mine Force One, the all volunteer force of men planting mines in the North Sea.   They referred to themselves as "rat catchers"  and prayed they didn't hit a mine themselves or set one off since the whole flotilla of "planters" would have blown  sky high.   My g-uncle's service file has a commendation letter from FDR when he was assistant secretary of the Navy to him and several other officers for their actions to save their old, mostly wooden ship when it caught fire one night after it had returned stateside from the war.  He also saved my grandmother's life when she was about 2 and he was 11.    So, I'm proud of him and one of about 5 or 6 generations of people that wouldn't be here, but for his cool and fast thinking when he was 11.   One day I should do a post on him.  Guess I just did. 

 

Congrats on joining the ancestor sword club and DO NOT engrave it.   You're a lucky man.  

The Sword is Drawn.jpg

Family Sword.jpg

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aerialbridge
3 hours ago, sundance said:

Gongrats. You both have beautiful swords. Aerialbridge, may I ask where you got the display case?

 

sundance,  of course, glad to help.   This is the outfit I bought the unit from.    It's the cherry wood finish option.  I was completely satisfied with the quality, fit and finish,  and their shipping, packing and communications were fine.    They had an option for several dollars more to buy an engraved plate and two light bars for night lighting that I also bought.  I  believe red felt is the default background, but they also offered a removable backing in different colors you could put over the red.  I bought a blue one (Navy), but have liked the red and not used the blue one so far.  It's 98% UV protected plexiglass which is good.  But I'd still keep it out of any direct sunlight.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Sword-Display-Case-Cabinet-Stand-Holder-Wall-Rack-Box-98-UV-Lockable-44-5/371967605241?hash=item569aff39f9:g:o8MAAOSwZJBYBRdG

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crazyfingers

I won't have it engraved. Both my boys will want it when the time comes for me to pass it along. I know which boy will win. The one who found your Two Shanes, Eternity post aerialbridge. He is far more interested in working to find the history than the other.

 

I expect that I'll eventually get a display case. Right now the house it too full of stuff to have a place to put it. My three teens will not be in the house too much longer, pandemic and job market willing, and then I can clean up. For right now it's safest in the black leather case it came in.

 

Friar, i haven't forgotten about photographing the engravings up and down the blade. 

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aerialbridge
5 hours ago, sundance said:

aerialbridge, thank you for that information. That seems like a good price.

 

You're welcome.  When you figure that the price includes free shipping, and knowing how much shipping charges are for something this size,  it's not much profit.  Even if you could find something like it in a physical store,  it wouldn't be at this price.    Very happy with mine after two years and I've gotten much more than $60 worth of satisfaction.  😎

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aerialbridge
4 hours ago, crazyfingers said:

I won't have it engraved. Both my boys will want it when the time comes for me to pass it along. I know which boy will win. The one who found your Two Shanes, Eternity post aerialbridge. He is far more interested in working to find the history than the other.

 

I expect that I'll eventually get a display case. Right now the house it too full of stuff to have a place to put it. My three teens will not be in the house too much longer, pandemic and job market willing, and then I can clean up. For right now it's safest in the black leather case it came in.

 

Friar, i haven't forgotten about photographing the engravings up and down the blade. 

 

A wise decision not to engrave it and to leave it as it's been for the past 120 years.   The appreciation and preservation of American History should be its own reward, but nothing wrong with incentivizing it  for the one who will appreciate it most.   I don't have that dilemma of choosing, mine will pass to my daughter. 

USS_Arizona_World_War_I_Sword_redacted.png

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crazyfingers
On 8/18/2020 at 7:42 PM, FriarChuck said:

I would love to see some pictures of the blade engraving (it it has any) It’s been pretty standard for years but it’s neat to see different manufacturers take on the designs. Also at the base of the blade near the hilt there should be makers marks that tell you which company made it. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Friar

I've tried to photograph the engravings on the blade. The convex and then convave shape makes it hard to get a good angle but here's my try.

This is left side 1

Left 1.jpg

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aerialbridge

Does your extended family still possess the M1852 sword that your grandfather,  Louis Shane, Jr,  who was KIA commanding the USS Shark, presumably would have owned?   I guess my question is,  have you considered the possibility that this sword may be his,  and not his fathers, since there's no name on it?   I'm certainly no sword expert,  but the case, sword,  all seem more like 1920's or 30's than 1890s. 

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crazyfingers

I am only certain to the extent that my Uncle is certain that it belonged to Louis Shane Sr. I've asked my Uncle if he knows anything about the sword that his father would have had and his response is that it must have gone down with the Shark 174. He knows nothing of it.

Reading  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1852_Naval_Officers_Sword

There is a note about 20th century swords being straight. Not exactly sure what that means. Were pre-20th century swords up-swept at the tip? And when exactly did this change take place? It doesn't say. 1898 could go either way given the vague reference.

My sward is straight looking from the side. However if held out, there is a mild bend to the left for both the sword and the scabbards / sheath starting at about 8 inches from the tip. I don't know if it was made this way or if for many years it was stored tip down and both may have bent.

 

I did a fair bit of searching before finishing this post to learn what it means by straight or not straight and when this change really happened but there is scare historical information on the M1852 sword. Most hits were auction sites. The picture on this site describes the sword as late 19 / early 20 century.

What makes you think that it may be of 1920-1930's vintage?

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crazyfingers

Hang on. On very close inspection I can see the name Louis Shane ever so lightly engraved where an engraving should be. It's lighter than the engravings I posted above. I have tried to photograph and having a hard time. I'll keep trying with particular note if there is a Jr. present also.

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crazyfingers

It's also upside down from the orientation I'd have expected. I had never closely inspected it from the up side down view.

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It is difficult to date these thin-bladed M1852s.  Most turn-of-the-century swords have the retailer/outfitters name stamped on the reverse ricasso, and this usually provides a clue, but for some reason the outfit who sold your sword didn’t.  The genuine ray skin grip suggests an earlier date.   Although they continued to use genuine skin in later swords, post-WWI swords tended to increasingly use synthetic material.  Here is an example sword made by Ames and retailed by Jacob Reeds Sons in about 1910 – is seems quite like your sword.

 

image.png.36f3e7ae86e2df143f8af8a9390439cb.png

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crazyfingers

That's interesting. I think my grandfather Louis Shane Jr would have had the Jr put on the sword knowing his father would also have one but I suppose that I night never be 100% certain. Louis Jr would have gotten his in 1926 when he graduated.

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