Aviation Carpenter's Mate

[Keith]

I picked up some Chief coats today. There were 5 different colors but to keep my cost down I did not buy the white one with regular patch. But I did get a dress blue with a bullion patch. A green (aviation?) with bullion. A khaki with regular patch. A grey with a khaki patch.

I would like to know about the grey coat as I don't recall seeing one before.
I also would like to know about the Aviation Carpenters Mate rating; my BJ manuals from 1940-1946 do not mention the Aviation rating, only the CM rating. Was the Aviation Carpenters mate prior to or after WW2?

I post 4 photos of the patches. Feedback please, thanks!

EDIT: Pictures are lost

[dpcsdan]

I would like to know about the grey coat as I don't recall seeing one before.

I also would like to know about the Aviation Carpenters Mate rating; my BJ manuals from 1940-1946 do not mention the Aviation rating, only the CM rating. Was the Aviation Carpenters mate prior to or after WW2?

 

The below is from the Navy's All Hands Magazine (Sept. 1943). Due to the unavailability of many gray rating badge specialty marks, Chief Petty Officers were authorized to wear the "blue" rating badge on the slate gray uniforms, but it appears this owner only had an extra khaki rating badge to use.

 

Some of the confusion probably came from the fact that before the full gray uniform regulation was fully written, officers and CPOs were instructed to follow the current guidelines for the USN's officer and CPO khaki uniform.

 

-dan

 

"Slate Grays Authorized for C.P.O.s

Chief petty officers now are authorized to wear the new slate gray working uniform, identical (except for insignia) with that recently approved for wear by commissioned officers and warrant officers.

During the necessary transition period, chief petty officers may follow the same regulations promulgated for commissioned officers and warrant officers regarding wearing of the khaki working uniform. That is, they may wear khaki uniforms now in their possession, or manufactured, until the supply of these uniforms is exhausted, or those in possession are worn out.

Until such time as gray cloth rating badges are available, chief petty officers may wear the blue rating badge on gray uniforms. (Full details appear in R-1327, Navy Department Bulletin [semimonthly], dated 15 August 1943.)

Source: "Slate Grays Authorized for C.P.O.s." All Hands. 318 (September 1943) "

[Keith]

The below is from the Navy's All Hands Magazine (Sept. 1943). Due to the unavailability of many gray rating badge specialty marks, Chief Petty Officers were authorized to wear the "blue" rating badge on the slate gray uniforms, but it appears this owner only had an extra khaki rating badge to use...

 

-dan

 

"Slate Grays Authorized for C.P.O.s

Chief petty officers now are authorized to wear the new slate gray working uniform, identical (except for insignia) with that recently approved for wear by commissioned officers and warrant officers.

During the necessary transition period, chief petty officers may follow the same regulations promulgated for commissioned officers and warrant officers regarding wearing of the khaki working uniform. That is, they may wear khaki uniforms now in their possession, or manufactured, until the supply of these uniforms is exhausted, or those in possession are worn out.

Until such time as gray cloth rating badges are available, chief petty officers may wear the blue rating badge on gray uniforms. (Full details appear in R-1327, Navy Department Bulletin [semimonthly], dated 15 August 1943.)

Source: "Slate Grays Authorized for C.P.O.s." All Hands. 318 (September 1943) "

Thanks. That reads as if the Khakis were replaced by the grays mid-war.

[dpcsdan]

Replacing the khaki uniform was the original intent of the gray uniform, but the USN backed off that plan and finally killed the gray uniform. Most sailors disliked and joked about the gray uniform. Some of the comments were that they all looked like airline pilots, among other things...

[Bob Hudson]

We have a big thread about the Navy gray uniforms here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=33036

 

Anyone venture a guess as to how rare they are?

[Keith]

We have a big thread about the Navy gray uniforms here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=33036

 

Anyone venture a guess as to how rare they are?

Thanks, I took a look.

[dpcsdan]

I had missed this thread.

Ultra rare in anything below Chief Petty Officer!

Thanks,

-dan

[Keith]

I had missed this thread.

Ultra rare in anything below Chief Petty Officer!

Thanks,

-dan

Ultra rare? Do you mean the Aviation Carpenter mate patches or the grey coats?

There were two or 3 navy blue jumpers with lower PO's patches on them....should I go back and try to get them? I am afraid I am getting too much invested in these. I am into them at about $20 per coat now (2 bullion, green and blue and 2 regular, khaki and grey) and I think she is going to want another $40-$50 for a couple suits of dress blue jumpers and 13 button pants. What do you think?

[dpcsdan]

Ultra rare? Do you mean the Aviation Carpenter mate patches or the grey coats?

There were two or 3 navy blue jumpers with lower PO's patches on them....should I go back and try to get them? I am afraid I am getting too much invested in these. I am into them at about $20 per coat now (2 bullion, green and blue and 2 regular, khaki and grey) and I think she is going to want another $40-$50 for a couple suits of dress blue jumpers and 13 button pants. What do you think?

Keith,

I meant ultra rare to find an actual slate gray uniform that was worn by an enlisted sailor below the grade of Chief Petty Officer.

 

I can't speak to what you're willing to pay for the other uniforms. You've gotten a very good deal on the $20 coats. I'd love to have a couple of them in my collection. At $40-50 the dress blue jumpers and pants would be high in my opinion (discounting scarcity of rating badge specialty, tailor made jumper, etc.).

 

Good luck.

-dan

[0bx]

Keith, in answer to your question regarding the effective dates for the Aviation Carpenter's Mate rating, per John Stacey's book 'United States Navy Rating Badges and Marks 1833 to 2008, the effective dates for the rating were 1918-1940.

-fritz

[dpcsdan]

Keith, in answer to your question regarding the effective dates for the Aviation Carpenter's Mate rating, per John Stacey's book 'United States Navy Rating Badges and Marks 1833 to 2008, the effective dates for the rating were 1918-1940.

-fritz

Fritz, Keith,

The above statement is true...but, there are hundreds of examples of Aviation Carpenter's Mate rating badges being used in the WWII years, some dated later than 1940.

I discussed this with John Stacey and he agrees they were used through at least 1945.

Since the war turned out to be a "carrier war", I believe the war changed the navy's plans on this particular rate.

By the way, I purchased two of these uniforms from Keith, the aviation green and the slate gray. Thanks again, Keith.

-dan

[checkit]

Thought the original posters of this thread might get a kick out of these early photos of Aviation Carpenter A.H. McElroy and his ship the USS Brooklyn (decommissioned in 1921)

 

 

 

[Justin B.]

Thanks, that's really cool.

Just to add to this 9 year old topic... I think the use of Aviation Carpenter's Mate rating badges in WW2 can mostly be attributed to the rating of Painter V, established in October 1943 in the Aviation Branch. Though the Navy never established a separate specialty mark, it is understandable that painters assigned to air squardrons, stations etc. would want a rating badge that differentiated them from the crossed axes of the "ship" painters, and suppliers were glad to sell them badges with the old ACM mark.

Justin B.

[MastersMate]

That explanation makes good sense.. The Aviation Carpenter's mate was eliminated in 1940. The rating badge at that time was worn on the left arm. That meant the eagle faced aft and it had the tilt making it appear to lean forward. During WW 2 the eagle on the rating badges was altered to stand vertical and to face forward on both arms. The grade of CPO was established for the Painter rating. I would think the rating badge manufacturers anticipated a revival of the aviation carpenters mate specialty mark as the mark for the new aviation painter.

 

 

[Justin B.]

And, not surprisingly, the question made it to "All Hands", August 1945:

 

[MastersMate]

Those Aviation Carpenter's mate rating badges with the post 1941 eagle facing its right and standing vertical would then have to be considered as a USN unauthorized, but unofficially used in service rating insignia ??? An oddity rating ...

[sigsaye]

Those Aviation Carpenter's mate rating badges with the post 1941 eagle facing its right and standing vertical would then have to be considered as a USN unauthorized, but unofficially used in service rating insignia ??? An oddity rating ...

. I can see them being used. Im sure the Navy never had them produced or contracted for them. But Im sure the manufacturers cranked them up and they were sold in the ships off base. Most people arent really that aware of Regulations in the Navy, nor do/did most care, especially back then. Most people concerned themselves with their rate, didnt care about others. If no one cared in your shop, go for it. Even in my day, there were times when deployed, the Correct/Regulation insignia was not available in the exchange, I guys would just get it made in a shop off base. Many of them looked, simply awful! But, nobody cared, that had something. On my first ship, we were in the Philippines when the advancement list came out. Exchange had no rating badges for my rate. So the guys in the shop just bought rates that they thought looked cool for the whites they would wear on Shore Patrol. They were going to be trashed anyway. Chief didnt care. He was WW2 vet and just cared that guys did their job

[MastersMate]

No doubt at all about the usage.. In the mid 1960s, I think it was either Subic or Yokouska where you could pick up dungaree rating badges that had a specialty mark embroidered on them. Picked up a few of them and upon return to the east coast I stayed with the cutter. Some in the new bridge gang were a bit confused by things "WestPac"...

[sigsaye]

No doubt at all about the usage.. In the mid 1960s, I think it was either Subic or Yokouska where you could pick up dungaree rating badges that had a specialty mark embroidered on them. Picked up a few of them and upon return to the east coast I stayed with the cutter. Some in the new bridge gang were a bit confused by things "WestPac"...

my first 14 years were West Coast, 4 ships. Then I went to Great Lakes to push Boots. You could dirt out the West Coadt Sailors from the East Coast ines. Then to the East Coast for 9 years. Big culture shock. Stuff no one in the Pacific concerned themselves with became huge issues on the East Coast.

[Salvage Sailor]

Ditto what you fellas wrote regarding West Coast vs. East Coast, I always stood out with my Pacific Fleet uniforms and gear when at quarters. Some of the East Coast Chiefs would give me poop about my slip on boondockers, Hong Kong blues and Japanese ball cap and rates, but the CO loved it as he'd been a WESTPAC officer and Brown Water Navy skipper with a Purple Heart.......

 

.....now back to this excellent topic on the ACM rate

[sigsaye]

Im quite sure, that the Aviation Painters saw those crows out in town and snatched them up and wore them. If Chief didnt say anything (he was probably the first to find them), no one else would either. Official? Regulation? Maybe not, but worn anyway.

[MastersMate]

Minor observation concerning all these side conversations concerning ratings, uniforms, ribbons and all things uniform in general..

 

Today we are spoiled by instant access to manuals, regulations and up to date information. Just a little anecdote concerning those above topics..

 

Friday afternoon, March 1, 1974, I returned to my cutter from a parts and scavangeing run up to the CG district office in down town Honolulu. Went below to the PO1 quarters to change back into dungarees and turn to. At the top of the ladder was a pile of clothing and gear that looked very familiar. Going below I was bluntly informed that I was no longer berthed in those quarters and should go see what the Chiefs mess was going to do with me. This was a W.T.F. moment and then it had sunk in.. I had taken the service-wide exam for QMC back in the previous September. Relying on the NAVY TIMES paper, the published CG advancement list had me well below the predicted cut-off mark. My QMC mentioned that looked like tough luck try it again next September.. Administration communications was still in the snail mail mode but I made no real attempt at tracking something that I figured I'd get a months heads up if the list got close to my name.

 

Anyhoo, the 1 March advancement message arrived on the date and sure enough my name was advanced to QMC on that date... No CPO uniforms, the weekend duty, no chance to get to Pearl Hbr and pick up at least a set of work khaki. The rest of that first week was a bit of a cluster.. Luckily the DCC was my size and was able to spot me a quick uniform to cover the week end.. The rest of that week is a whole 'nuther story....

 

Anyway it is very easy to understand the administrative confusion and lapses of such a huge operation in war time..