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Not a doubt in my mind that's a repro...looks like most of the other ones that have appeared on auction right down to he ribbon, not a single scrap of provenance with it...one of the rarest US medals in history ... Being sold by a dealer who often mistakenly (or knowingly, but benefit of the doubt here) lists fakes as real

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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The medal is mine, I have 2- I am selling this one at auction because I do not need 2 and I want someone else to have the opportunity to own one.. I have attached a post from this forum about the first one I have with the certificate and part of a large bulletproof provenance. This one doesnt have the paper certificate as most dont - I have researched these medals probably more than anyone and this one is 100% original.

 

                                                        "looks like most of the other ones that have appeared on auction right down to he ribbon"

                         

 

will you provide an example of "another one that this one looks like right down to the ribbon"? if you look at the pics of the medal at auction it is no where like the obvious fakes

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I am on my phone so can't pull anything up, and if there's provenance then the auction should at least mention, if not depict that. Particularly that venue, as most people I know who have dealt with them, and I myself when perusing their inventory, have seen a mix and match of real and fake.

 

I assume the one you are keeping is the one with provenance and in a group, while the other is the one off eBay. To me, a side by side comparison is not provenance as likely the best replicas were cast from original strikes and the original medals were so crudely made to begin with that repros are more likely to be accepted as real.

 

You state you have researched the medal more than anyone and it is 100 percent real. Why? How did you ascertain this? I'm sorry, but without concrete provenance to the particular medal in question, on an item like this where only about 100 were struck, and only about 50 from two different does...I personally need something more than a side-by-side comparison between an eBay medal and Craigslist medal. Have these been weighed, microscopes, compared to more than just each other? I'd love to be definitively proven wrong, perhaps by a comparing it to someone like General Vandegrift's or General Twining's medal, who wrote about it in his book and undoubtedly kept his.

 

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

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understood, the one I am keeping is part of a large grouping that I got from the Marines family, was just dumb luck as I didnt know anything about the medal until about a week after I got the grouping- I have seen the ones at the Marine Corps museum - they have a small number if them,and these are identical in size, construction and base metal. every reproduction I have ever seen, it is obviously not the same. 

 

                                      please post pics of the ones you have stated are obvious fakes as I am sure they are not anywhere near the same. attached is a pic of the ones in the Marine Corps Museum

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I found OMSA's "The Medal Collector" article from February 1974. Hope I don't get in trouble with the OMSA guys here for posting the pic, but the George is just so doggone rare, I think it important for the guys to see what an original actually looks like.

 

The below pictured George was donated to the Marine Corps Museum by BGen James J. Keating, USMC (Ret), who, on Guadalcanal commanded 3rd Bn, 11th Marines, the last 1st Marine Division unit to leave Guadalcanal, 5 January 1943.

 

According to the OMSA article, only 50 (some say as few as 20) were cast in Australia before the mold gave out. There was no mention of a second run of these medals, so at the very most, only 50 originals should exist. Notice the difference in the museum medal's pendant ring and those posted here.

 

EDIT NOTE: Forgot to mention, but Marine Corps legend states that the only way this medal was considered "official" would be if the HBT dungaree ribbon had been washed in the muddy waters of the Lunga River, Guadalcanal.

 

Gary

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"George" is a rare and interesting "medal". It commemorates a very historical event when the Navy sailed away from Guadalcanal leaving the Marines to fend for themselves. From the USMC WWII monograph, we find the following:

 

"The George Medal is legendary among 1st Marine Division veterans of Guadalcanal. Only about 50 were cast, in Australia, before the mold gave out.

 

The medal commemorates the difficult situation of the division during the early days on Guadalcanal, when ammunition, food, and heavy equipment were short and the Japanese plentiful. When the issue was no longer in doubt, Marine had time to reflect on the D-plus-3 Navy withdrawal in the face of increasing Japanese air attacks and surface action which left the division in such a tight spot."

 

Here's a couple of pics of the one in my collection. I obtained it in 1997 at an OMSA convention. It was looked at and blessed by several knowledgeable collectors.

 

(here is another post from Bob Gee from 2007)

image.png

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What is that depression to the left of the cows head? 
 

This one is from Bobgee’s collection.

 

This is the only medal shown with a defined depression.
 


 

 

30130656-5FF7-40CC-9955-3CF26ED4B335.jpeg

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the one at auction has the "depression"- here is a better pic, the base metal is a brass like metal and almost everyone I have seen has wear on that spot on the back and on the front where sometimes the star can be seen (always with different level of wear)

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Soldering a ring is quite different that a pronounced depression in the mold that would be automatically repeated.

 

I don’t know anything about this medal but I’m trying to figure out what a real one looks like.

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This one is 100% original, read the posts I have included on this- the one in Bob Gees post is flawless and doesnt look like it was ever handled. the medal material is a brass like metal so there is always varying levels of wear on the ones I have seen, some with the star on the sleeve some without some in between but always in the same spots on the front and back. There is so little information about these so you always have to dig- I have 2- I have bullet proof provenance from Owen Connor  from the Marine Corps museum - at has he did research on the 1st division Marine that received it (also see info in the post) They are exactly identical with the slight color difference in the ribbons and different wear. I have no doubt it is completely correct and original but everyone had to make that call. I have researched and read everything I can find on these medals- fascinating story and the difference between an original and a repro are obvious.

                       Apparently there were 2 strikes, (versions) of this medal they are slightly different- there is a mold in a museum in California- I believe, of the other strike - I have a picture of it somewhere. the one is slightly more refined as I think it may have been the later of the 2 strikes. I dont need 2 and am giving someone the opportunity of owning one, I really hope it doesnt sell so I can put it with his brother back in the safe.

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On 8/6/2020 at 1:52 PM, Tinley100 said:

. There was no mention of a second run of these medals

 

 

On 8/6/2020 at 5:38 PM, Tinley100 said:

this strike (there were 2) has this design on it- there was a second strike that was either done  before or after that doesnt have it. The other one has the suspension ring turned 90 degrees

 

 

 

So which one is it? In one post you say there was no second run, however in another you say there was two strikes.

 

From what I've read (I believe in "No Bended Knee", but I'd have to check that) the first mold broke after about 50, and a second mold, I imagine made from recasting a first strike medal and thus diminished in detail quality, lasted around the same.

 

Also, it is believed that these medals were also struck in the 60s or 70s for a veteran reunion for those who never received it...Adam refers to it in this topic:

I would imagine that back then they simply used an original medal to make the cast and thus, after 50 years of natural patina, they could be mighty convincing.

 

I think a definitive analysis of an unquestionable original that includes weight, exact measurements, etc should be conducted. Without rock solid provenance...and I mean rock solid...I just don't trust any of these. I'd certainly gladly pay good money for an unquestionable original...but I would not want to risk spending thousands to find out in twenty years it was not, ala Champagne Runes fiasco

 

I'm looking to see if I have any photos saved...I didn't transfer much of my photos from my old laptop of stuff I stopped collecting

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

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                    "So which one is it? In one post you say there was no second run, however in another you say there was two strikes."

 

    If you actually read my posts, you will see that the above quote is from a post from GLM in 2007- I didnt say that, GLM did and I was listing the post for reference as specified in the post after it.

 

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and the example you provided is nothing like the one we are discussing- everything is different including the metal used for the construction- a blind person can see that. I am still waiting for your                 "looks like most of the other ones that have appeared on auction right down to he ribbon"                      your uninformed opinions may stop someone from acquiring a very rare piece- so I respectfully ask you to either provide proof of what you claim or just admit you were giving uninformed opinion.    

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https://www.usmcmuseum.com/blog/when-war-was-a-laughing-matter-the-let-george-do-it-medal

 

Here is an article from the blog of the USMC museum, written by Owen L. Conner - he is the Uniform and Heraldry Curator for the National Museum of the Marine Corps. he mentions the 2 strikes- do you trust the OMSA article I included? or do you trust the opinion of Bob Gee? as both show similar versions as the medal at auction. If there was a copy done in the 60s or 70s- the example you included in your last post is no doubt that as everything from construction material, ribbon design and sewing and suspension ring is wrong. Do you thing that the USMC Museum would be displaying fakes?

 

 

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If you actually read my post, you'd see that I did not post that link to compare the medal to yours. I did not state they were the same. I posted it to refer to Adam's post of the existence of reunion strikes...and nobody said the medal in the thread was a reunion strike.

 

I know Owen, and I knew Bob...and while I trust both of their opinions they are just that-opinions. As was what I originally posted. An opinion. That's prefaced with the phrase "in my mind". I never presented it as fact. These are so rare that even the most experienced collectors may not have handled any number of originals.

 

What I don't understand is why you didn't post this in your original topic, instead you posted an auction link in a new topic without initially stating ownership, as if you as a third party had stumbled upon something you were not going to buy and thought the forum would be interested, essentially violating the forum rules about listing outside sales and really just plugging your sale. If you are worried about other people's opinions affecting the sales price of your items, then don't post them on an open forum.

 

As with anything in this hobby, it's up to the buyer to make his own determination.

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

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A very tricky Medal to authenticate. Like Brig, I knew Bob and have just finished co-authoring an article with Owen. Both would  admit they have or had gaps in their knowledge, but were willing to learn. Sometimes the museum has added accidently items that were not authentic and some times due to bad cataloging practices over the years stuff got mixed together. So even the Museums holdings can sometimes be wrong.

Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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That is very true, unless an actual conversation with an actual Marine that was actually there and received one- one they still are in possession of, we have to go by whatever research is out there. I have seen terrible reproductions and I have seen bad reproductions of this medal- I have never seen a reproduction that I couldn't easily tell the difference. I was not there nor have I ever spoken to a Marine that received one and examined the one that they still have in their possession so I am basing everything on the research and comparisons I have done.

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