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I saw this MD ACH with a logo on label I have not seen before. Any one know what this logo is and what the "MD" means before "ACH"?

 

Is there a time line for when pads changed from black/green to black/foilage green to completely foilage green? What would be period correct in 2006? 

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Revision Military, not sure what MD is. For 2006 general DCU or UCP helmet cover and everything everything else green, tan, or black, foliage green hel.etx chi straps, pads, helmet bands, goggle retention straps, lagged behind

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"I read that in war bad things happen, Ain't that the ************* truth" -1st Lt Mike Scotti

 

 

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Cap Camouflage Pattern I said:

Revision Military, not sure what MD is. For 2006 general DCU or UCP helmet cover and everything everything else green, tan, or black, foliage green hel.etx chi straps, pads, helmet bands, goggle retention straps, lagged behind

Thank you, that does look like a Revision logo.  I did not know Revision made ACH's? I thought only MSA. Gentex. BAE, and Rabintex (Armor source) made Advanced combat helmets. The Mar 2008 tech and operators manual does not mention Revision as a manufacturer. Is Revision a new maker of ACH's? 

 

On my 2006 ACH I have a UCP cover, foilage band, green revision goggles with black strap and sleeve, foilage retention straps based on pics from US Army soldiers in Iraq 2006. But there were many variables depending on what was available to individual soldier or unit at that time.

 

I still wonder if the pads top/ bottom went from green/black to black/foilage to foliage/foilage . It makes sense that this would be the progression of the development of the pads but i could be wrong.

 

I have a 04 contract marked  UCP cover. Is this rare? Usually I see 05 as the earliest contract for UCP ACH covers.

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Revision bought MSA's combat helmet factory in 2012 and took over their contracts and have revived several since then.

 

I've wondered about the evolution of helmets pads before but haven't seen much definitive. The pads with rounded edges are certainly earlier,  some I've seen are green on the back and black on the front, others are all black. I'm not sure if one is earlier than the other, or if they are just manufacturer's variations. Then come the mores rectangular ones with the edge around them. For those I have an unmarked green on the back, black on the front, 2005 contract foliage green on the back, black on the front, and fully foliage green. I have also seen a picture of green on the back, foliage green on the front, but I don't know where those fit in the timeline. I haven't seen any issue tan 499 pads to go with OCP, even on the new IHPS. 

 

I've never looked out for them, but I don't believe a 2004 contract UCP cover would be rare, contracts can be awarded far before production, for example IHPS  that just started being issued in 2019 have 2014 contracts. I have seen tons of 2003 contract UCP ACUs. 

 

 

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here's a thousand pictures!

"I read that in war bad things happen, Ain't that the ************* truth" -1st Lt Mike Scotti

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, PaulS said:

Thank you, that does look like a Revision logo.  I did not know Revision made ACH's? I thought only MSA. Gentex. BAE, and Rabintex (Armor source) made Advanced combat helmets. The Mar 2008 tech and operators manual does not mention Revision as a manufacturer. Is Revision a new maker of ACH's? 

 

On my 2006 ACH I have a UCP cover, foilage band, green revision goggles with black strap and sleeve, foilage retention straps based on pics from US Army soldiers in Iraq 2006. But there were many variables depending on what was available to individual soldier or unit at that time.

 

I still wonder if the pads top/ bottom went from green/black to black/foilage to foliage/foilage . It makes sense that this would be the progression of the development of the pads but i could be wrong.

 

I have a 04 contract marked  UCP cover. Is this rare? Usually I see 05 as the earliest contract for UCP ACH covers.

Revision is a late entry into the manufacturing of helmets, so no, you won't see them as early as 2006.  The first manufacturer of the modern era of helmets was Gallet, who were then acquired by MSA. Gentex, BAE hopped in when a lot of the rapid fielding initiatives were going on and stayed int he game. Rabintex's notoriety was for their helmets that were prone to cracking when dropped, their non-ballistic bolts, and the subsequent recall. Armorsource unfortunately caught that bullet after acquiring Rabintex.  Armorsource does landed contracts, and you'll see a lot of the Riverine and SWCC guys wearing them.

 

In 2006 you could have a mixture of black pads and chinstraps, foliage pads and green chinstraps, and a mix/match style depending on how long the soldier had the helmet.  Replacement pads, new chinstraps, and all kinds of occurrences would be bought or issued to go onto the helmets.  I've picked up newly sold helmets from surplus shops that still retain black chinstraps and pads that would have been in service 10-12 years.

 

The pads went through a process as you discussed as well with some of the oddball ones being mixed colors for the top and bottom. Generally the issue progression was black, then black or green, then foliage at the late stage.  Some of the other 'branded' helmets, like the TBH series from Gentex, have a black outer cover with the interior foam being a salmon pink color.

 

The 04 dated UCP cover isn't really 'rare' as it were.  It could have been manufactured in 2004 or it could have been manufactured later using the older contract number.

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On 8/5/2020 at 12:48 PM, RedLegGI said:

Revision is a late entry into the manufacturing of helmets, so no, you won't see them as early as 2006.  The first manufacturer of the modern era of helmets was Gallet, who were then acquired by MSA. Gentex, BAE hopped in when a lot of the rapid fielding initiatives were going on and stayed int he game. Rabintex's notoriety was for their helmets that were prone to cracking when dropped, their non-ballistic bolts, and the subsequent recall. Armorsource unfortunately caught that bullet after acquiring Rabintex.  Armorsource does landed contracts, and you'll see a lot of the Riverine and SWCC guys wearing them.

 

In 2006 you could have a mixture of black pads and chinstraps, foliage pads and green chinstraps, and a mix/match style depending on how long the soldier had the helmet.  Replacement pads, new chinstraps, and all kinds of occurrences would be bought or issued to go onto the helmets.  I've picked up newly sold helmets from surplus shops that still retain black chinstraps and pads that would have been in service 10-12 years.

 

The pads went through a process as you discussed as well with some of the oddball ones being mixed colors for the top and bottom. Generally the issue progression was black, then black or green, then foliage at the late stage.  Some of the other 'branded' helmets, like the TBH series from Gentex, have a black outer cover with the interior foam being a salmon pink color.

 

The 04 dated UCP cover isn't really 'rare' as it were.  It could have been manufactured in 2004 or it could have been manufactured later using the older contract number.

Thank you  for your help with my questions! I have another post about the green/black pads I acquired last week. Hope to hear your thoughts.

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On 8/5/2020 at 10:39 AM, Cap Camouflage Pattern I said:

Revision bought MSA's combat helmet factory in 2012 and took over their contracts and have revived several since then.

 

I've wondered about the evolution of helmets pads before but haven't seen much definitive. The pads with rounded edges are certainly earlier,  some I've seen are green on the back and black on the front, others are all black. I'm not sure if one is earlier than the other, or if they are just manufacturer's variations. Then come the mores rectangular ones with the edge around them. For those I have an unmarked green on the back, black on the front, 2005 contract foliage green on the back, black on the front, and fully foliage green. I have also seen a picture of green on the back, foliage green on the front, but I don't know where those fit in the timeline. I haven't seen any issue tan 499 pads to go with OCP, even on the new IHPS. 

 

I've never looked out for them, but I don't believe a 2004 contract UCP cover would be rare, contracts can be awarded far before production, for example IHPS  that just started being issued in 2019 have 2014 contracts. I have seen tons of 2003 contract UCP ACUs. 

 

 

Thank you for your help! I purchased some black/green pads last week. a few different makers and styles. I will be posting them today. Looking forward to your opinion.

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So last week I purchased some green/black ACH pads for some of my early ACH's. I thought I would find either Oregon Aero or the standard govt, contract pads. But I also found a some others, as well as different styles of Aero pads. According to my TM 10-8470-204-10 manual dated 31 may 2004, the pads had the size marked on a small black tag and came in sizes 6 and 8. The different Aero pads I found have the size on the black tag or the size and shape information stamped on the underside of pad. Does anyone know when this change took place?

 

Of the different manufacturers of the green/black pads I came across are "ZAP" 3/4 SIZE with "SPECIALTY DEFENSE" stamp. MSA stamped, and the standard govt. contract stamped pads. Any idea when these were used? Could the SDS and MSA pads been the original pads that came with the earlier helmets of the same manufacturers? When did the govt. contract pads become available? 2005, 2006? The contract date is "05" but from what I have seen, that does not always mean manufactured in 2005.

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On 8/24/2020 at 11:26 AM, PaulS said:

1. Does anyone know when this change took place?

 

2. Of the different manufacturers of the green/black pads I came across are "ZAP" 3/4 SIZE with "SPECIALTY DEFENSE" stamp. MSA stamped, and the standard govt. contract stamped pads. Any idea when these were used?

 

3. Could the SDS and MSA pads been the original pads that came with the earlier helmets of the same manufacturers?

 

4. When did the govt. contract pads become available? 2005, 2006? The contract date is "05" but from what I have seen, that does not always mean manufactured in 2005.

So here we go.

 

1. The change would have taken place somewhere around the time when MSA bought out CGF's US production. 

 

2.  ZAP pads, a product of team wendy, were issued with the SDS produced helmets that were part of the rapid field initiative.  They're a distinctive feature of SDS helmets along with the green chinstraps and 'tan' hardware on the chinstrap.  The Green/Black on both the ZAP and MSA pads are earlier in the production of these helmets and are a bit of an oddity as why not just produce them in a single color?

 

3. Yes, they would have been issued with the helmet.  After they were turned in though, it could be a crapshoot of chinstraps, pads, etc, as all helmets are broken down to components before being turned in.  It is hard to find helmets with their original early pads, chinstraps, ets, as they were replaced when worn out, or for whatever reason the wearer wanted. 

 

4.I don't know a specific date on this, but I would presume 04/05 you see 'standard' stamping with NSN/Contract info on them.

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Like RedLeg said helmets were stripped into pieces when turned in and generally we received them in pieces as well. During time in the Guard (2008 to 2018), I had a few helmets, some had black pads and chin straps, some had the foliage green pads and chinstrap. To CIF, its just a helmet, pads, strap, and cover so they issued whatever was in the bin. 

US Army National Guard 2008 - 2018.

US Air Force Reserve 2018 - Present.

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On 8/25/2020 at 10:58 PM, RedLegGI said:

So here we go.

 

1. The change would have taken place somewhere around the time when MSA bought out CGF's US production. 

 

2.  ZAP pads, a product of team wendy, were issued with the SDS produced helmets that were part of the rapid field initiative.  They're a distinctive feature of SDS helmets along with the green chinstraps and 'tan' hardware on the chinstrap.  The Green/Black on both the ZAP and MSA pads are earlier in the production of these helmets and are a bit of an oddity as why not just produce them in a single color?

 

3. Yes, they would have been issued with the helmet.  After they were turned in though, it could be a crapshoot of chinstraps, pads, etc, as all helmets are broken down to components before being turned in.  It is hard to find helmets with their original early pads, chinstraps, ets, as they were replaced when worn out, or for whatever reason the wearer wanted. 

 

4.I don't know a specific date on this, but I would presume 04/05 you see 'standard' stamping with NSN/Contract info on them.

Hello,

 

  Thank you for your help! I have a question clarification. On the 1st question about "Does anyone know when this change took place?"  I was referring to when Oregon Aero pads changed from having  the size (either 6 or 8)  on the small black tag to having the size (3/4) and shape information stamped on the underside of pad ( pic 3). What is CGF?

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On 8/25/2020 at 11:35 PM, DocCollector1441 said:

Like RedLeg said helmets were stripped into pieces when turned in and generally we received them in pieces as well. During time in the Guard (2008 to 2018), I had a few helmets, some had black pads and chin straps, some had the foliage green pads and chinstrap. To CIF, its just a helmet, pads, strap, and cover so they issued whatever was in the bin. 

I can believe that. When I was serving, we used the PASGT, for turn in the helmet was also stripped down to helmet with chinstrap attachments ( no head band, cover, elastic band, or chinstrap). I aim is to reconstruct helmet/s to original period issue configuration. When my unit was deployed to Bosnia we were issued .50 cal. ammo that was packed in 1953.

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8 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Hello,

 

  Thank you for your help! I have a question clarification. On the 1st question about "Does anyone know when this change took place?"  I was referring to when Oregon Aero pads changed from having  the size (either 6 or 😎 on the small black tag to having the size (3/4) and shape information stamped on the underside of pad ( pic 3). What is CGF?

 

Looking at some of my helmets,  Dec of 03, they're still 6/8, same in early 2004, by Nov 2005 the've got the MSA stamp.  I looked at several lids, but that was just a quick and dirty survey.   So CGF is the company whose helmet design was chosen by SOCOM to become the next generation helmet after the PASGT and which eventually became the ACH.

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CGF Gallet is a French company, they were the original manufacturers of the MICH. In May 2002 they were bought by MSA which is how they got into the ballistic helmet business. For a while after the helmets they made were marked MSA Gallet, then just MSA. 

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here's a thousand pictures!

"I read that in war bad things happen, Ain't that the ************* truth" -1st Lt Mike Scotti

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/31/2020 at 10:47 AM, RedLegGI said:

 

Looking at some of my helmets,  Dec of 03, they're still 6/8, same in early 2004, by Nov 2005 the've got the MSA stamp.  I looked at several lids, but that was just a quick and dirty survey.   So CGF is the company whose helmet design was chosen by SOCOM to become the next generation helmet after the PASGT and which eventually became the ACH.

I recently received a MSA made ACH with a DOM of 08/2005. It came with a full set of MSA pads. I think this helemt was all original parts. What do you think?

 

I also received a bunch of gray/ black pads. In them I found MSA black/gray pads in size 3/4 and "1" (pic1). I can not find size 1 in any of my manuals. When was size "I" used? So MSA used Oregon Aero pads until around 2005? Did any other manufacture use Oregon Aero pads as original parts?

 

I also found a couple unmarked black pads (pic 2 &3).  If the all black ones were also used in early ACH helmets which manufacturer/s?

 

Finally there were a couple of "Skydex" all gray pads (pic 4). Was Skydex ever a military supplier?

 

Did any manufacturers of the ACH around 2004-2005 use Oregon Areo pads? Were contract marked green/black pads replacements or original to new helmets after 2004 or 2005? If installed in new helmets, which manufacturer/s used them?

 

Thanks in advance!

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On 9/4/2020 at 10:37 PM, PaulS said:

I recently received a MSA made ACH with a DOM of 08/2005. It came with a full set of MSA pads. I think this helemt was all original parts. What do you think?

 

I also received a bunch of gray/ black pads. In them I found MSA black/gray pads in size 3/4 and "1" (pic1). I can not find size 1 in any of my manuals. When was size "I" used? So MSA used Oregon Aero pads until around 2005? Did any other manufacture use Oregon Aero pads as original parts?

 

I also found a couple unmarked black pads (pic 2 &3).  If the all black ones were also used in early ACH helmets which manufacturer/s?

 

Finally there were a couple of "Skydex" all gray pads (pic 4). Was Skydex ever a military supplier?

 

Did any manufacturers of the ACH around 2004-2005 use Oregon Areo pads? Were contract marked green/black pads replacements or original to new helmets after 2004 or 2005? If installed in new helmets, which manufacturer/s used them?

 

Thanks in advance!

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Unless you have some obvious concern about the pads, then I'd say its likely original.

 

I'm not sure when the 1" pads came into existence. I'm not sure on the exact changeover date, but by the time MSA dropped the CGF/MSA labeling, it likely would have been all MSA marked pads.  I don't believe Skydex was used as issue pads for any manufacturer, just as upgrades or private purchase.  Without any markings on the black pads, you can't trade them to a specific maker or who used them.  That being said most of the TBH helmets by Gentex I have came with unmarked black pads.  I really don't know about Oregon Aero's use after MSA switched over and if other manufacturers used them, but I'd lean towards not.

 

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On 9/6/2020 at 12:34 PM, RedLegGI said:

Unless you have some obvious concern about the pads, then I'd say its likely original.

 

I'm not sure when the 1" pads came into existence. I'm not sure on the exact changeover date, but by the time MSA dropped the CGF/MSA labeling, it likely would have been all MSA marked pads.  I don't believe Skydex was used as issue pads for any manufacturer, just as upgrades or private purchase.  Without any markings on the black pads, you can't trade them to a specific maker or who used them.  That being said most of the TBH helmets by Gentex I have came with unmarked black pads.  I really don't know about Oregon Aero's use after MSA switched over and if other manufacturers used them, but I'd lean towards not.

 

Thank you for your help.

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On 9/8/2020 at 9:28 PM, PaulS said:

Thank you for your help.

Do you know how to determine the "DOM" of ACH's made by SDS or BAE? My SDS ACH has a "07" and M7 molded in the crown. Does the 07 mean 2007?  The color is foliage green. The contract is 05.

 

ACH DOM made by Gentex and MSA is so easy if the labels are present, I wish all manufacturers did the same.

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Some time back I was told the original black/green MSA pads were deemed unsuitable for parachuting and Airborne units had to replace all of them with the newer grey pads. Has anybody heard anything like that?

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5 hours ago, saxecoburg said:

Some time back I was told the original black/green MSA pads were deemed unsuitable for parachuting and Airborne units had to replace all of them with the newer grey pads. Has anybody heard anything like that?

In the 2015 junpmaster school packing list it says no black pads allowed. Not sure when this rule was first made or by who.

A picture is worth a thousand words, so here's a thousand pictures!

"I read that in war bad things happen, Ain't that the ************* truth" -1st Lt Mike Scotti

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Is there any way to know the "DOM" of BAE and SDS advanced combat helmets? I have seen two digit molded numbers inside. Is that the year of manufacture?

 

When did SDS approx. stop using green web with tan buckles on the chinstraps? I have SDS helmet chinstraps in foliage green off a "05" contract. I have also noticed that the old "05" contract does not necessarily mean made in "05". I have some MSA ACH's with DOMs of 2007 dates on "05" contracts. Also a Gentex helmet with 12/13 DOM on 2009 contract.

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On 9/20/2020 at 7:53 PM, PaulS said:

Is there any way to know the "DOM" of BAE and SDS advanced combat helmets? I have seen two digit molded numbers inside. Is that the year of manufacture?

 

When did SDS approx. stop using green web with tan buckles on the chinstraps? I have SDS helmet chinstraps in foliage green off a "05" contract. I have also noticed that the old "05" contract does not necessarily mean made in "05". I have some MSA ACH's with DOMs of 2007 dates on "05" contracts. Also a Gentex helmet with 12/13 DOM on 2009 contract.

The contract numbers, as you stated, don't always match up to the years produced.  The reason for this is that companies can have their contracts modified at a later date to produce more goods.  They use the same contract number, even though what is produced can be years apart.  Below is an example of this.  The first contract in 07 was for Navy uniforms, while the second in 2011 was for Army Multicams.

 

Contract: SPM1C1-07-D-1551

2007:
http://www.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3650

2011:
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4663

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