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M1902 Saber makers and retailers


Doctorofwar
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Doctorofwar

Does anyone have or is able to list the makers/retailers of M1902 Sabers and the dates that they made/marketed them?

I am especially interested in who marked them from the beginning up to the inter-war period.  I have never seen a straight forward usable listing with this information.  Also if the maker made these swords through and after this era, was there any tell tale characteristics or changes in markings to help date one of their swords to the pre-WW2 era?  If anyone knows where this information can be found or if anyone has ever compiled a complete (or mostly complete) list I’d appreciate being steered in the right direction.   
Thanks.

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Spathologist

Short answer, no.  And it's likely not possible.

 

There were probably only a half-dozen or so pre-WWII makers of M1902 sabers, mostly German, and an unknown, but high, number of assemblers and retailers.  Most of the markings you see on commercial M1902s are from the assemblers or retailers.

 

Tim Graham has made an effort towards identifying makers and dating based on observations, but hasn't put anything into writing I'm aware of.  You can find his posts on the topic here under his user name Tim.

 

There are some characteristics such as grip composition, assembly methods, and signature styles that can help roughly bracket a M1902's age, but there are always exceptions.  It's not too difficult to date a saber to pre-WWII, though, if that's all you want to do.

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Doctorofwar

I guess I am more interested in finding out what assemblers and retailers were active with what hallmarks appearing on the swords prior to WW2, or to narrow it down further, WW1 and before.  
Poking around the forum hasn’t yielded the results I was looking for, hence this post.  

I’m surprised there isn’t more research into this since this pattern sword is commonly found.  It seems the most complete information out there on the net concerns Springfield Armory Production Types, but leaves out contemporary marketers in this early time frame.

What characteristics would be most reliable to denote a pre-war sword?  

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Spathologist
On 7/28/2020 at 1:05 PM, Doctorofwar said:

I guess I am more interested in finding out what assemblers and retailers were active with what hallmarks appearing on the swords prior to WW2, or to narrow it down further, WW1 and before...
What characteristics would be most reliable to denote a pre-war sword?  

Well, when you multiply a half dozen makers by a dozen or so assemblers and hundreds or thousands of retailers over 120 years combined with little period documentation...yeah.  I won't be writing that book.  Springfield Armory sabers are easier to categorize because the manufacture dates are narrow, the numbers are relatively low, and we have a great deal of the manufacturer's documentation.

 

My opinion, the great majority of sabers out there are pre-war.  Before the war, all active duty and national guard officers were required to have them as a uniform item.  Officers were not required to purchase them during or after the war, so numbers sold drastically reduced.  And they became unfashionable; they are very rarely seen outside of Cavalry units other than the occasional presentation piece. 

 

Any saber with a peened pommel or a wood or horn grip is certainly pre-WWII.  Non-magnetic furniture can be an indicator, but not conclusive as the current WKC offerings are nickel-plated brass.  

 

The features of late pre-war sabers, such as plastic grips and screwed pommels were carried on after the war, so it's sometimes hard to separate some sabers made in the 1950s from those made in the late 1930s. 

 

Commercial post-WWII sabers can be distinguished by:

- Manufacture anywhere but Germany or France.  Sabers marked "Made in USA" were made after the supply from Germany was cut off at the beginning of the war.  "American Made" or "Made in US" might be late 1930s; at some point when supply started to get tight Lilley-Ames began to crank out blades.  England, Japan, Spain, India didn't start making them until post-WWII.

- Anything stainless.  Stainless steel is not regulation, and didn't pop up until post war.

- Marked West Germany.  Obviously.

- Shallow, frosted, cheap laser-looking etch.

 

Mis dos centavos, YMMV.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm not certain about about the "Made in USA" mark.  I believe it was earlier.  The driving factor was not the cut-off of blades from Nazi Germany - they kept up deliver right up to entry of the US into WWII.  Not sure what the driver was for the use of these markings, but I believe they date to the 1920s or early 1930s,  I have a Navy sword with similar marking which dates to the period between 1925 and 1931.  I believe the Army sabers were contemporary.

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Spathologist
1 hour ago, reschenk said:

I'm not certain about about the "Made in USA" mark.  I believe it was earlier.  The driving factor was not the cut-off of blades from Nazi Germany - they kept up deliver right up to entry of the US into WWII.  Not sure what the driver was for the use of these markings, but I believe they date to the 1920s or early 1930s,  I have a Navy sword with similar marking which dates to the period between 1925 and 1931.  I believe the Army sabers were contemporary.

 

No, the blade supply from Germany was pretty much shut down by 1939.  In September of that year Meyer wrote to Eickhorn regretfully severing their commercial relationship at the end of what had obviously been a long-term difficulty of supply since the outbreak of European hostilities. 

 

Lilley-Ames was the only US producer of blades I'm aware of, and their sabers were not generally marked with country of origin as they were not required to be.  Exceptions began to appear around 1938 with the "US Army Regulation Standard" marked blades and in 1938 or 1939 for Lilley-Ames blades.  These were marked "American Made" or "Made in US".

 

The "Made in USA" sabers are all comparatively crude in construction, materials, and etching, and I've seen no dated examples of that mark before 1940.  

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Richard Bezdek has a section on American sword dealers as well as lists of makers and assemblers.in his book, "American Swords and Sword Makers."  The book is ISBN 0-87364-765-3 and is a heavy tome.  He does have a helpful habit of listing the timelines of various makers and dealers/assemblers so this is your best bet for published data on this information Doctorofwar.  His book is available from Paladin Press.  

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

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Doctorofwar

Thanks everyone for the replies- 

 

I had been wondering about Bezdek’s books- never having my hands on a copy and with copies getting on the pricey side I didn’t know what they contained and hadn’t yet taken the plunge.  I’ll keep an eye out for a deal on a copy.  

I definitely have more to go on from some of the information provided on dating the blades.  
 

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I checked my notes and you are correct, Jim Brown tells us L-A did discontinuing importing Eickhorn blades in Sep 1939, and I know of no other German supplier who sold blades at subsequent date.  I just disremembered the date to be the US entry into the conflict.  My bad.  I still, however, suspect the Made-in-U.S.-marked blades are earlier than Sep 1939.  In 1942 the Navy suspended officers swords for the Navy and Marines.  I'm uncertain if the Army did as well, but i don't think much war production was dedicated to building officer swords..  You see a lot of Made-in-U.S. swords for them to all date from 1939 to 1942.  My Navy sword does not seem crude and seems to date to 1925-1931.  Do any other Forum members have dated example?  Name-inscribed blades may also provide a clue  by suggesting the dates of service.  I would really like to nail the timeframe down.

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Spathologist
31 minutes ago, reschenk said:

I checked my notes and you are correct, Jim Brown tells us L-A did discontinuing importing Eickhorn blades in Sep 1939, and I know of no other German supplier who sold blades at subsequent date.  I just disremembered the date to be the US entry into the conflict.  My bad.  I still, however, suspect the Made-in-U.S.-marked blades are earlier than Sep 1939.  In 1942 the Navy suspended officers swords for the Navy and Marines.  I'm uncertain if the Army did as well, but i don't think much war production was dedicated to building officer swords..  You see a lot of Made-in-U.S. swords for them to all date from 1939 to 1942.  My Navy sword does not seem crude and seems to date to 1925-1931.  

"Made in US", "Made in USA" or "American Made" I agree can be pre-1939, though the earliest dated example I've seen has been 1938.  These sabers are "normal" quality.

 

For the "MADE U.S.A" sabers (no dot after the A, which speaks volumes on quality control), the pictures below of one dated 1942 help illustrate what I mean when I say "crude".  The plastic handle is light and cheap.  The scabbard furniture is not cleanly finished.  The etching is uneven, with light and heavy areas in the same letter and lines that wander.  The earliest dated saber with that marking I've seen is from 1940, and it's a different animal.  Normal L-A quality with a very light "MADE U.S.A" stamp, like they took a blade out of stock and hand-stamped it before assembling the saber.

 

 

WW11 WW2 Officer Sword 1942 Eagle USA Columbus Ohio Com..._1320815467715.png

WW11 WW2 Officer Sword 1942 Eagle USA Columbus Ohio Com..._1320815586680.png

WW11 WW2 Officer Sword 1942 Eagle USA Columbus Ohio Com..._1320815655830.png

WW11 WW2 Officer Sword 1942 Eagle USA Columbus Ohio Com..._1320815668661.png

WW11 WW2 Officer Sword 1942 Eagle USA Columbus Ohio Com..._1320815681596.png

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One other observation.  The "MADE USA'"  marks are crudely stamped and often on a sword which otherwise  looks to be of foreign manufacturer  e.g.  one having a brass proved slug.  I understand The "Germany" country of manufacture is sometimes stamped on the tang to effectively conceal the origin on the complete assembled sword.  Could the MADE USA stamp be a further deception? (I'm speaking of a Navy sword with the brass plug - haven't seen  a  M1902.)

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Doctorofwar

Were there any makers/retailers that exclusively made all of their M1902s with the “heavier” blade style (aside from Springfield Armory)?

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Spathologist
22 minutes ago, Doctorofwar said:

Were there any makers/retailers that exclusively made all of their M1902s with the “heavier” blade style (aside from Springfield Armory)?

 

The Springfield saber blades were actually rather light compared to some of the commercial offerings.  The distal taper begins earlier, coming to a not-so-false edge on the last quarter or so of the blade.  I just pulled out a 32" Springfield and a 32" Ames; the pob on the Springfield was 4-5/8", the Ames was 5-5/8".  Some of that might be a difference in furniture weight, but not all of it.  

 

The most substantial M1902 I can remember handling was a Ridabock made in France.  Very stout example.

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Doctorofwar
1 hour ago, Varangian said:

 

The Springfield saber blades were actually rather light compared to some of the commercial offerings.  The distal taper begins earlier, coming to a not-so-false edge on the last quarter or so of the blade.  I just pulled out a 32" Springfield and a 32" Ames; the pob on the Springfield was 4-5/8", the Ames was 5-5/8".  Some of that might be a difference in furniture weight, but not all of it.  

 

The most substantial M1902 I can remember handling was a Ridabock made in France.  Very stout example.

Thanks for the detailed insight on this.

 

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Spathologist
3 hours ago, Varangian said:

"Made in US", "Made in USA" or "American Made" I agree can be pre-1939, though the earliest dated example I've seen has been 1938. 

 

I stand corrected...the earliest is 1935, on a L-A marked as "Sportsman/US Army/American Made". 

 

I couldn't make out the last number of the year in the inscription, so I'd filed it as 193X, but looking at the officer's record it was a gift from his NCOs on his last day as a first sergeant before being commissioned, 7 Feb 1935.  Given the early date in 1935, they were likely sold at least as early as 1934.

180803553771.png

180803553770.png

Mercandino.JPG

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Here is a circa 1940 dated M 1902 Army Officer presentation sword identified to the owner.  This is a very well made sword.

 

 

Yee sword.JPG

Yee blade pres.JPG

Yee sword maker.JPG

Yee scab pres.JPG

Yee photo.jpg

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Another M1852 Navy officer's sword just sold on eBay.  It was a good quality sword with a Made U.S.A. mark on the blade.  (https://www.ebay.com/itm/M1905-USN-Dress-Sword-Made-1928-/224103250787?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=4O3CuGXe%2F4gBcFI9R4a0EzIs%2By0%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc)  The officer'

s date of service  was 1927-1934, which suggests he likely purchased the sword near his date of commission, i.e.  1927.  The M1852 Navy with these marks  was probably contemporary with the similarly marked M1902 Army.

 

 image.png.9fe1076a0d51c022d80058333b38edcc.png

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  • 11 months later...
On 8/1/2020 at 11:45 AM, SARGE said:

Here is a circa 1940 dated M 1902 Army Officer presentation sword identified to the owner.  This is a very well made sword.

This sword was manufactured by Lilley-Ames.  The Cincinnati Regalia Company was a sister company to L-A.  In 1895 Pettibone Mfg Co (Cincinnati) went bankrupt and L-A attempted to purchase the Pettibone assets, but were outbid by a group of Cincinnati businessmen.  L-A established Cincinnati Regalia in 1895 in retaliation and in an attempt to put the newly created Pettibone Bros company out of business.  Ironically, Cincinnati Regalia and Pettibone Bros remained in business decades after L-A went out of business.

 

The etching plate that made this Cincinnati Regalia Co hallmark was in the Lilley-Ames company archives.

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