MIL K 811, "Demo" Pocket Knife, Gen Purpose Utility, - Odd variations of the US Pocket Knife with many names...

[2MOB]

I have always had an interest in these unusual pocket knives.  It started when I was about 12, I think.  My father, a Senior NCO who served 32 years in the USAF, had returned from a TDY and I noticed his Knife.  I saw it many times in his "Dad drawer" later where he kept all kinds of memorabilia, cuff links, and doo-dads only boys and Dad would be interested in.  Many years later I had acquired 2 from my 10 years in the AF (Combat Communications had lots of them) and over the years many more (I even took one from a prisoner I searched in the holding cell when I was a police officer- he never claimed it).  I never thought about formal collecting until I stumbled across this site and saw some of the pics and notes and expert advice and knowledge.  Then I found the Ebay sales and I was hooked.  Anyway, not to bore you- although I have some fairly nice examples, I still remain an uneducated novice.  So here are some questions I couldn't find answers to.   I hoped some of you gentlemen would be kind enough to share with me your wisdom and insight.  

The first is a question about a Stevenson marking on a bail I found on a knife for sale.  The knife itself should be from the 1944-45 time period I think, and from what little I know it seems correct.  The only thing I find odd is the extremely clean and sharp bail marking.  In fact the bail (or clevis, if you like) is in perfect shape all around.  I have a Kingston from the same time period and the difference here is remarkable.  So the question is:  Is it possible - are there unscrupulous individuals who would add a repro bail in order to up the value of a knife?  Please note I have no reason to believe the seller here is in any way fraudulent or misleading- I merely ask the question from ignorance and a desire to learn.   Here is a photo of the bail:

[2MOB]

Another question on another knife from your New Novice Knife Guy:

Most of the questions I have are answered already when I scroll through this site.  The knowledge here is staggering.  The helpfulness is overwhelming.  So many of you, with such patience answer similar questions again and again without tiring.  Thank you for that.  I have learned much just reading your responses. 

Here is something I have not seen addressed.  It appears to be a Kingston, completely unmarked, from about 1944-45.  The blades are in the 1st arrangement (Main blade and screwdriver on same side, opposite bail).  The liners are brass.  The Can Opener (Eagles beak/Hawks bill style) is marked Can Opener with PAT. PEND. underneath (which one of you stated puts its production in the year prior to Dec 1945).  The odd thing is that there is no cut-out for the awl-punch on the side.  In fact, there is no Awl at all (heh heh!) Instead there is a pen knife blade.  What the hey?  Is this an extremely rare model ?  Something assembled in 1946 out of older parts?   Something a Camillus worker assembled at home like Johnny Cash's Cadillac?  

 

[Misfit 45]

Hi 2MOB,

Is it possible with today's digital scanning and milling to recreate the Stevenson-45 clevis? Maybe, but I don't think you have to worry about yours.  After looking at mine, I am amazed at the similarity.  It looks just like yours...even down to the weird vertical line in the name.  Yours is  between the N and the O;  mine is touching the left side of the O.  They both also have similar unfinished grind marks near the pin.  

 

As for your second picture, yeah, the likely explanation is a post war put-together by Ulster or Imperial, or whomever bought the parts after the war.  They were not issued in that configuration.

Welcome to the forum.

Marv

[2MOB]

Thank you Misfit45 (Marv).  This is exactly the type of education I was looking for.   That is a very impressive knife there.  You got exactly what concerned me:  How could anything in almost daily use, 75 years old have such an intact and clear inscription on an outer piece?   I was very concerned (and glad to see with your evidence- that I was wrong).  This was a very good lesson and I would love to see more pics of your collection if you are so inclined!   Thanks again John.

[sactroop]

Add my STEVENSON-45 to the two above. Same orientation of the clevis to the main body of the knife with the name nearest the awl blade, something I find possibly curious if we assume the name was intended to be displayed a specific way.  I've got the same, (I'll call it tool mark over the O located slightly to the right of where you see it in Marv's picture.

It's nice to hear such praise from you, but I think all of us are floating in a boat where we still have a lot more questions than solid answers.

I try to avoid diverging with Marv, but in this case I feel like I need to repeat something I've posted more than once before.  Imperial, Ulster, and Kingston are to the "Imperial Knife Associated Companies", as Chevrolet, Buick, and Cadillac are to General Motors. Those three knife companies were all part of the larger entity during WW2 and would come to include Schrade also a year after the war.

From the different pieces of evidence including pieces of documentation I'm not sure we can jump to the conclusion that because your knife has a pen knife blade where an awl usually is found that determines the knife was a post war item.  There is no doubt that both Camillus and The Imperial Knife Associated Companies made four bladed, (engineer's type) knives with either awls or pen knife blades towards the end of WW2. The commonly recognized knives have synthetic scales and not the metal ones.  This doesn't help date your knife one way or the other, nor remove other possibilities about the specific history of your knife.  I can only say that yours isn't the first example I've seen with a pen knife blade.

[2MOB]

55 minutes ago, sactroop said:

.  There is no doubt that both Camillus and The Imperial Knife Associated Companies made four bladed, (engineer's type) knives with either awls or pen knife blades towards the end of WW2. The commonly recognized knives have synthetic scales and not the metal ones.  This doesn't help date your knife one way or the other, nor remove other possibilities about the specific history of your knife.  I can only say that yours isn't the first example I've seen with a pen knife blade.

This is very interesting.   Certainly a possibility that needs to be considered.   Most interesting is that you've seen this example before:  this tells me this is not just a random anomaly.   Someone deliberately made it this way,  and whether they did it during the war, or afterwards with parts if very much an open question.  Thank you for that very good input. 

[thorin6]

There certainly are more than one (with pen blades). One possible explanation is that these were made for the Navy to test the steel knife, but was rejected.  No documentation that I am aware of.

 

[thorin6]

Now if you want odd.

 

[sactroop]

I'm back where I belong beside Marv again😉.  While until some document comes to light to tell us yes this happened.  We can only speculate that some of the metal scale knives may have been made for the Navy.  I myself have been sitting on a fence for a lot of years now when it comes to the distribution of the early metal scale knives of WW2 vintage.  We have solid documentation that the United States Marine Corps had made contracts and were taking deliveries with the intent of supplying those knives to every Marine well before the Army convened it's board to look into the question of a possible universal knife for general use and what would be the best design.

My contention is that the War ended before the committee had completed its report.  The evidence is contained in the report itself.  Towards the end of the report is a summary sheet laying out the the different steps that needed to still take place with different department such as the Quartermaster Corps and others for completion of the report.  This summary sheet is dated August 9th 1945, the morning the second atomic bomb was dropped on Japan.  The report continues with input from the different groups completing their tasks with many of the dates of these report well after the knife contracts have been canceled.

1948 MIL-J-818 is written.

1955 MIL-K-818A is written, and the beat goes on.

[2MOB]

Absolutely fascinating.  First, thank you Thorin6 for sharing those pics.  I will probably not sleep tonight trying to figure out the whys and whats of that oddball knife pic.   These are exactly the kinds of things that make this such an interesting hobby.   These and the history....and thank you Sactroop for an enlightening history lesson.   Your take on the reports is a very well thought-out and likely position on the matter.  So glad I joined this group!  Regards again.   John

[sactroop]

You're welcome John.  I think a good piece of the attraction to collecting is trying to detective away the unanswered questions that seem to wrap themselves around the items.