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Combat used ETO Lt M1 Helmet with leadership stripe and liner


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8 hours ago, twthmoses said:

The first thing I noticed is the sweatband is attached to the napestrap suspension, not where it should be, at the web suspension. Is that not a 50s thing? - That actual led to the removal of the napestrap in the 60s liner version? I uselessly think of this as post war, but hey users must have started sometime, and maybe it’s a war thing also?

 

Actually the sweatband clipped to nape was very common in WWII. Here is a famous photo of a KIA 87th ID BAR gunner in 1945; you can see his sweatband is attached to the nape area. I also have an ID'd liner belonging to an MP that only served in WWII and it also has the sweatband attached to nape area.

 

Pat

KIA 87th Helmet Germany.JPG

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21 minutes ago, ArchangelDM said:


also not to mention with the early helmets the paint didn’t stick to well to the rim. 

Yes indeed, precisely why it wanted to mention it. 

 

Also, you're quite luck. Really love the helmet you got there! Those properly used/ historical lids will always be my favorite. 

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20 minutes ago, Burning Hazard said:

 

Actually the sweatband clipped to nape was very common in WWII. Here is a famous photo of a KIA 87th ID BAR gunner in 1945; you can see his sweatband is attached to the nape area. I also have an ID'd liner belonging to an MP that only served in WWII and it also has the sweatband attached to nape area.

 

Pat

KIA 87th Helmet Germany.JPG


Pat I feel he had no clue on what he was actually commenting on. 
 

great photo showing the liner 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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18 minutes ago, Samhelm59 said:

Yes indeed, precisely why it wanted to mention it. 

 

Also, you're quite luck. Really love the helmet you got there! Those properly used/ historical lids will always be my favorite. 


Thankyou Sam 

 

it really is a true time capsule, undisturbed and as it was left 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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6 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:


I’m totally perplexed by your questions ? Liner is an early inland liner with non adjustable nape strap and khaki webbing 1942/1943. 
 

also headband is attached to the nape strap a “50s thing” ? Many soldiers moved the inside leather suspension where was comfortable. 
 

flat buckle leather chinstrap early WW2 stuck stiff where it’s been since the war, evidence to this as there is rubbing on the liner. 
 

net has tons of shadowing on the shell, not to mention rust bleed through from helmet to net.

 

Also Inside rust stains on the shell and liner matching 

 

have you studied the photos on this thread ? 

 

 
 

 

No need to be perplexed. We are just having a conversation. I simply asked how do you know this has been together since and including ww2? Remember I can only see the photos, you can see the helmet in the real. 
There is nothing wrong with the liner, shell or net. Looks good all of it. I’m simply stating what catches my eye, from photos, with the information that this has been together for 70+ years. Well 80 years in fact. And that is the sweatband location, missing liner net shadows and the rim. Might be perfect good explanation to all of them, but does not change that it catches my eye.

Now the sweatband location might indeed be widespread in ww2, but common I don’t think so. It does not take 20 years to manufacture change something that is common done, including all the euro clones from the 50s, who also waited to the 60s to remove the napestrap and factory attach the sweatband in this location. I’m not saying this liner has not been with this shell since ww2, might or might not, just looks like it was used afterward too.

Liners that sits in shells with nets for a prolonged time, and does not get out, leaves net-shadows on the liner.

like I say, might be perfect good explanation for all of it.

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1 hour ago, ArchangelDM said:


Pat I feel he had no clue on what he was actually commenting on. 
 

great photo showing the liner 

No need to go there! We are just having a conversation. 

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14 minutes ago, twthmoses said:

No need to be perplexed. We are just having a conversation. I simply asked how do you know this has been together since and including ww2? Remember I can only see the photos, you can see the helmet in the real. 
There is nothing wrong with the liner, shell or net. Looks good all of it. I’m simply stating what catches my eye, from photos, with the information that this has been together for 70+ years. Well 80 years in fact. And that is the sweatband location, missing liner net shadows and the rim. Might be perfect good explanation to all of them, but does not change that it catches my eye.

Now the sweatband location might indeed be widespread in ww2, but common I don’t think so. It does not take 20 years to manufacture change something that is common done, including all the euro clones from the 50s, who also waited to the 60s to remove the napestrap and factory attach the sweatband in this location. I’m not saying this liner has not been with this shell since ww2, might or might not, just looks like it was used afterward too.

Liners that sits in shells with nets for a prolonged time, and does not get out, leaves net-shadows on the liner.

like I say, might be perfect good explanation for all of it.


It is very odd to state that due to a headband being connected to the nape strap it was a 50s era thing to do. Now in the 2nd post it was also a rare thing to do ? Then you ask me how do I know it’s been together ? 
 

How do you know that this was done in the 50s, and how do you know it was a rare thing to do in WW2 
 

you have made statements with no evidence whatsoever, You have then been given period photos showing you otherwise and still it’s a rare thing. 

 

I believe all your questions have been answered with period photographic evidence. 



Glad to have such a new and enthusiastic member on the forum 
 

 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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16 minutes ago, twthmoses said:

No need to go there! We are just having a conversation. 


I think the conversation has been had with all respect 

 

have a great evening 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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19 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:


It is very odd to state that due to a headband being connected to the nape strap it was a 50s era thing to do. Now in the 2nd post it was also a rare thing to do ? Then you ask me how do I know it’s been together ? 
 

How do you know that this was done in the 50s, and how do you know it was a rare thing to do in WW2 
 

you have made statements with no evidence whatsoever, You have then been given period photos showing you otherwise and still it’s a rare thing. 

 

I believe all your questions have been answered with period photographic evidence. 



Glad to have such a new and enthusiastic member on the forum 
 

 

Hmm. Why are you so hostile? You show photos of your fine helmet - which it is, and a period photo of a helmet that is not yours, and you wonder why I ask how do you know this helmet-set has been together for 70+ years? And it’s not even a condescending question, since I hope you ask the very same question when you got it. I’m just curious.

im sure there is 1000s out there, but I’m not so lucky. I have seen maybe 3 helmet-sets with reasonable provenance so it can be assumed they (shell+liner) have been together for 70+ years. E.g someone pulled it off in 45/46 put it in a basement and here you have it today. 
As I told you, and do again, there is nothing wrong with either of the items, shell, net, and liner, all ww2, my simple question, pure curiosity, how do you know these three items have been together since ww2 (including) and never used since then?

which brings me right to the sweatband. As I also told you, I do not know when it started, might be the very first John Doe that got his helmet said “this does not fit, I’ll fix it my way”. But think about this. They changed a lot of things to a lot of equipment in ww2. But they did not change this, despite other changes. Then came the Korean War. One can argue hey we got all this ww2 surplus stuff, why change anything. Then a dozen euro countries adopted the m1 helmet, and produce there own liners and shells - they made a lot of local changes, but not this. None does. Then short of the Vietnam war, well at least before it goes into higher gear, all of them change the liner, us+euro clones+ Asian clones. And these countries are not even in a war (well there is always a war somewhere). Very strange for something that has been “common” for 20 years by now - maybe because it has not! 

Im not saying there is anything wrong with you helmet-set. I’m only saying my eye catches a thing that seems not common for a undisturbed ww2 helmet - a helmet which is a uncommon find to begin with.

Think about it this way. A helmet not used since 1945 In the condition it was taken off = rare. It’s a lieutenant helmet = even rarer. It has a “uncommon” thing in the liner (I know according to me). Can you find me 10 other m1 helmet-sets in the world with these three things? And you wonder why i ask how can you be sure this helmet-set has been together for 70+ year. And no I’m not belittling your helmet, in any way, I’m very curious and interested in seeing the real deal, but I also want to be sure that I am looking at the real deal. That’s how I learn. You should be too!

 

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1 hour ago, twthmoses said:

Hmm. Why are you so hostile? You show photos of your fine helmet - which it is, and a period photo of a helmet that is not yours, and you wonder why I ask how do you know this helmet-set has been together for 70+ years? And it’s not even a condescending question, since I hope you ask the very same question when you got it. I’m just curious.

im sure there is 1000s out there, but I’m not so lucky. I have seen maybe 3 helmet-sets with reasonable provenance so it can be assumed they (shell+liner) have been together for 70+ years. E.g someone pulled it off in 45/46 put it in a basement and here you have it today. 
As I told you, and do again, there is nothing wrong with either of the items, shell, net, and liner, all ww2, my simple question, pure curiosity, how do you know these three items have been together since ww2 (including) and never used since then?

which brings me right to the sweatband. As I also told you, I do not know when it started, might be the very first John Doe that got his helmet said “this does not fit, I’ll fix it my way”. But think about this. They changed a lot of things to a lot of equipment in ww2. But they did not change this, despite other changes. Then came the Korean War. One can argue hey we got all this ww2 surplus stuff, why change anything. Then a dozen euro countries adopted the m1 helmet, and produce there own liners and shells - they made a lot of local changes, but not this. None does. Then short of the Vietnam war, well at least before it goes into higher gear, all of them change the liner, us+euro clones+ Asian clones. And these countries are not even in a war (well there is always a war somewhere). Very strange for something that has been “common” for 20 years by now - maybe because it has not! 

Im not saying there is anything wrong with you helmet-set. I’m only saying my eye catches a thing that seems not common for a undisturbed ww2 helmet - a helmet which is a uncommon find to begin with.

Think about it this way. A helmet not used since 1945 In the condition it was taken off = rare. It’s a lieutenant helmet = even rarer. It has a “uncommon” thing in the liner (I know according to me). Can you find me 10 other m1 helmet-sets in the world with these three things? And you wonder why i ask how can you be sure this helmet-set has been together for 70+ year. And no I’m not belittling your helmet, in any way, I’m very curious and interested in seeing the real deal, but I also want to be sure that I am looking at the real deal. That’s how I learn. You should be too!

 


 

 


I have to ask :

 

how many WW2 M1 helmets do you currently own ? And have you owned, studied and actually had in hand.
 

seeing as you have made around 20 posts and joined a month ago, how long have you collected WW2 US militaria ? 

 

I would love to see your collection, can you post some pics please 

 

also if you want 10 sets To look at I would urge you to go through the thousands of threads from some of the biggest US collectors out there on here. 
 

 

Once again I think your answers have been addressed and we all look forward to seeing your collection where you have gained all of your  M1 in hand knowledge from. 


 

yours 

 

Dean 


 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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Hello Gentlemen,

 

I don't pretend to possess the level of knowledge that many forum members have regarding M1 helmets, but one thing I've learned collecting WW2 items over the years and researching my Dad's service in the ETO, is that not everything was done according to "the book" if you will, whether we're talking about equipment or procedures. Anomalies happen. Anyway, this set is a stunner. :)

 

Thanks!

James

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21 minutes ago, jmd62 said:

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I don't pretend to possess the level of knowledge that many forum members have regarding M1 helmets, but one thing I've learned collecting WW2 items over the years and researching my Dad's service in the ETO, is that not everything was done according to "the book" if you will, whether we're talking about equipment or procedures. Anomalies happen. Anyway, this set is a stunner. :)

 

Thanks!

James


agree on every level - can’t see why a headband attached to the nape strap is a “rarity” yet done in abundance In the 50s 😂. The period picture Pat added must have been a one off out of millions of soldiers and sailors. 


Im Sure all soldiers and sailors would adjust the liner to be made as comfortable as possible for the individual due to long periods of wearing them. 

I’m sure the helmet police where on patrol during WW2 checking all liner headbands where installed correctly, regardless of how uncomfortable it was for the wearer. 
 

In the 50s this changed and the liner patrol where unavailable. 
 

- Dean 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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"It is very odd to state that due to a headband being connected to the nape strap it was a 50s era thing to do. Now in the 2nd post it was also a rare thing to do ? Then you ask me how do I know it’s been together ? "

 

I can give you an answer about the headband placement.

Since they did not wear the chin straps... by moving the back of the headband to the Nape position.... the helmet would stay on your head much better even when running. Ive got in a number of old M1's that have the headband in the same place.

It to me is a good sign it was actively used. The newer or last model M1's had the webbing and nape reconfigured

to help keep it on your melon. The last model M1's are not as popular now or collectable but they were better helmets in my opinion than the WW2 M1's. from a wearers point of view.

In the field... not much is done by the book. ANd people do adjust and modify their equipment.

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6 minutes ago, ArchangelDM said:


agree on every level - can’t see why a headband attached to the nape strap is a “rarity” yet done in abundance In the 50s 😂. The period picture Pat added must have been a one off out of millions of soldiers and sailors. 


Im Sure all soldiers and sailors would adjust the liner to be made as comfortable as possible for the individual due to long periods of wearing them. 

I’m sure the helmet police where on patrol during WW2 checking all liner headbands where installed correctly, regardless of how uncomfortable it was for the wearer. 
 

In the 50s this changed and the liner patrol where unavailable. 
 

- Dean 

 

Helmet police, love it! :D  I've been fortunate to stay in touch with two WW2 vets that were in my Dad's Platoon. Just recently one told me that in regards to his Garand, the first thing he did when he got to Europe was to remove his aperture, didn't need it he said. He hit everything he aimed at like he did on the farm he grew up on. These guys did all kinds of things to customize their uniforms and weapons to fit their purposes. So the headband thing is no surprise to me. 

 

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When speculation becomes fact, we then have a problem. Equally, if all we have is speculation that based on experience, period photos and comparatives, then the speculation(theory) cannot be discounted either. I think the question of when/if nape straps were attached in this manner has been answered, as has the question of shadowing and the stainless rim paint being worn. We do not need to try to get our opinion to come out of the other persons mouth to somehow prove we are right or have won the debate. 

"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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20 minutes ago, jmd62 said:

 

Helmet police, love it! :D  I've been fortunate to stay in touch with two WW2 vets that were in my Dad's Platoon. Just recently one told me that in regards to his Garand, the first thing he did when he got to Europe was to remove his aperture, didn't need it he said. He hit everything he aimed at like he did on the farm he grew up on. These guys did all kinds of things to customize their uniforms and weapons to fit their purposes. So the headband thing is no surprise to me. 

 


Thankyou for your fathers service 

 

- Dean 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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Is there wear to the inside of the helmet where whatever was attached to the liner rubbed against ?
Looks like a screw on branch brass might have been there due to the viable rubbing.


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I think it’s neat all the very specific rust patterns match up on both liner and interior helmet. 
 

the exact patterns correspond 

7FC01585-01AD-4BD4-8EF2-4417ED59ADA3.jpeg

7280EDE7-C5D8-4DBF-A30B-1A120E3DB1F8.jpeg

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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15 minutes ago, ArchangelDM said:

I think it’s neat all the very specific rust patterns match up on both liner and interior helmet. 
 

the exact patterns correspond 

7FC01585-01AD-4BD4-8EF2-4417ED59ADA3.jpeg

7280EDE7-C5D8-4DBF-A30B-1A120E3DB1F8.jpeg

And that is what inspection is all about.

"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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I've owned WWII helmets that have had the sweatbands mounted to the nape strap, that is not that uncommon.  I've also seen and owned helmets with sweatbands mounted sideways.  The adjustment is on the side as opposed to the back.  Soldiers did whatever they wanted to make their lives a little better.  Not sure what regulation there would be against that.  

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25 minutes ago, Pudgy (V) said:

I've owned WWII helmets that have had the sweatbands mounted to the nape strap, that is not that uncommon.  I've also seen and owned helmets with sweatbands mounted sideways.  The adjustment is on the side as opposed to the back.  Soldiers did whatever they wanted to make their lives a little better.  Not sure what regulation there would be against that.  

Same experience here as well.  I'd say about 1/4 of my collection has the headband attached to the nape strap webbing.  Not uncommon at all IME.  

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9 hours ago, rooster77 said:

I can give you an answer about the headband placement.

Since they did not wear the chin straps... by moving the back of the headband to the Nape position.... the helmet would stay on your head much better even when running. Ive got in a number of old M1's that have the headband in the same place.

It to me is a good sign it was actively used.

In the field... not much is done by the book. ANd people do adjust and modify their equipment.

 

This. Very common to find WW2 M1 helmets sets with head band attached to lower webbing. Sometimes with head band attached over the neck strap and sometimes without the strap. Just try it with a helmet. It's incredible the difference it makes. I'd say half of my early helmets are set up in this configuration. I've sold several of them on this forum.

As for Dean's helmet, great looking rig. I NEVER dive in to the 'this has been together since day one' argument. Personally to me it doesn't matter, unless were talking about a 100% provenance helmet, which is rare these days. (Thinking back a few years to a specific 'provenance' jump helmet that caused a shite storm that belonged to a museum in PA). Anyhow, my opinion is that. So there

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7 hours ago, iron bender said:

 

This. Very common to find WW2 M1 helmets sets with head band attached to lower webbing. Sometimes with head band attached over the neck strap and sometimes without the strap. Just try it with a helmet. It's incredible the difference it makes. I'd say half of my early helmets are set up in this configuration. I've sold several of them on this forum.

As for Dean's helmet, great looking rig. I NEVER dive in to the 'this has been together since day one' argument. Personally to me it doesn't matter, unless were talking about a 100% provenance helmet, which is rare these days. (Thinking back a few years to a specific 'provenance' jump helmet that caused a shite storm that belonged to a museum in PA). Anyhow, my opinion is that. So there


I Agree Ironbender, 

this is when what Scott says comes into play. In depth investigation in hand of the item. 
 

Studying wear marks, rust analysis and studying patterns on the helmet and liner. 
Wear from the leather chinstrap rubbing inside etc etc. 

 

You then have to use your savvy and with all the information you have gathered in hand and ask yourself. Is it possible that these are both original to each other,

 

With matching wear on both the liner and helmet, rust patches matching all along the liner, net shadowing and period pictures showing the liners being worn with leather chinstrap tucked under the helmets with a british net. 
I would say IMHO that these are original to each other. 
 


 


- Dean 

 

 

 


 

 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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