Uncut 1943 Dated Utica M1's

[Okie96]

Figured this would be a good place to show these. From my observations these only seem to come up once a year and go for around $300 but after looking for some time I wound up with two of them within a month of each other. One for around 300 and the other for half that since I was apparently the first in line for once. Of the four uncut M1's, OL, UC, UFH, PAL, this variant seems to be the rarest. Rarity in order is probably UC, OL, PAL, UFH. I can't decide which ones the better of the two though. One has more finish but the top edge of the tip appears to have bee worked over. The rougher one has an unaltered tip, a REP scabbard, and a more visible ordnance marking. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance.

[Lsparks]

The scabbard on the left is a cut down.

You sure the blades are factory 10”?


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[capt14k]

There is also 1943 AFH 10" non Cutdown.

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[Lsparks]

The scabbard on the left is a cut down.

You sure the blades are factory 10”?


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I referred to a friend and he concurs these are not cut down blades. I’m sorry.


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[capt14k]

I referred to a friend and he concurs these are not cut down blades. I’m sorry.


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Correct. If they were Cutdown the fuller would extend to the tip.

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[Misfit 45]

1 hour ago, capt14k said:

There is also 1943 AFH 10" non Cutdown.


 

Sorry Capt, If there is an AFH non-cutdown  M1 with a dated 1943 blade, no one has ever seen one. The late great Gary Cunningham had never seen one, and I have not seen a photo of one either. There is, however, a Cut down AFH WITHOUT a date. Those are a little hard to come by. Thanks.

Marv

I look forward to other's responses. I have to go to work.

Marv

[capt14k]

Sorry Capt, If there is an AFH non-cutdown  M1 with a dated 1943 blade, no one has ever seen one. The late great Gary Cunningham had never seen one, and I have not seen a photo of one either. There is, however, a Cut down AFH WITHOUT a date. Those are a little hard to come by. Thanks.

Marv

I look forward to other's responses. I have to go to work.

Marv

You are correct. It is Cutdown. Dated 1943 AFH but Cutdown. My mistake.

 

https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/us-wwii-m1-garand-bayonet-afh-mfg-1943.37504.archive.htm

 

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[ccyooper]

Kind of a tough choice since both bayo’s have a few flaws. I think I would go with the best condition one with the odd tip. It looks like it was parked after the grind so it could have just been a worker in a hurry. I’d find a better scabbard that is commensurate with condition. The cut down is probably appropriate but the condition appears to be worse than the better bayonet.  The other scabbard is a Lighter colored VP 1953(?) contract and IMHO would be inappropriate for a nice hard to find early 43 M1 bayo. 

[Okie96]

Does anyone know how much work was done by hand in making bayonets?

[Misfit 45]

I agree with ccyooper, it's a tough choice.  Each one is unique with it's own story to tell.  I like them both.  I also agree with you, okie96, that the UFH dated M1 is probably the easiest to find. Sometimes I think that people pass them by because they don't recognize this unusual bayonet.  They think it's a cut down.

Here's why.  The UFH M1 with the 1943 date was made from a blank that was already forged for the 16 inch 1905 bayonet.  They simply cut it short and ground the fuller as a normal M1 bayonet.  As a result, they kinda look like a cut down, which they are, but they aren't.

The first picture shows the fuller "trying" to go through the tip.  The second picture shows the fuller going through the tip, but it is obviously not fully formed.

One question I've wondered about is, did UFH make a regular M1 with a dated blade.  I've never seen or heard of one.  I hope someone has one to show.

Marv 

[Okie96]

Thanks for the responses all. I wanted to bring this back up to see if anyone had any answers as to the manufacturing of these and the suggestion of the hastily done tip being factory? I don't know of a source and Cunningham's book does not appear to say anything about the actual manufacturing process for these. I'm only wanting to keep one and I'm kinda leaning towards the worse condition one. I haven't got the grips off of it yet but, assuming the grips came in pairs from the manufacturer, or a method likely to give a pair, it may help confirm a set original to the bayonet if they are the same. Given the finish over the worked on tip and the pairing of a 50's scabbard I'm thinking the one in better shape, while still a good example of a very rare variant, may be a 50's refurbished blade. I got the grips easily off of that one and they are a mismatched set of LC and AB which seems to support that theory? Thoughts on this?

[Misfit 45]

The interesting thing about the manufacturing of the dated M1 is in the question of why it has a date at all.  Years ago, the theory was that some manufacturers were putting dates on them just as they had been when making the long 1905, and were  then told to stop by the war dept.  The better theory, which seems to be the consensus today,  is that when the companies changed over to making the M1, they simply continued to use their old dated dies until they wore out and had to be replaced. They then made the simpler undated die, since the date was no longer required.

 

As for your M1 with the modified tip.  It seems plausible that during a refurbish, the tip,  and in fact, the entire cutting edge was re-done.  Naturally, trying to determine what is going on from looking at a picture, is not necessarily reliable, but it looks to me that the blade is actually slightly narrower than the other M1.  They could have re beveled the edge and corrected any damage on the tip. That may be what we are looking at.  

 

The type of grips that you find on a the M1 is not a good indicator as to whether it was refurbished or not. Replacing the grips can be done by anyone with a screwdriver, so you cannot be sure if they have been replaced or not.   In this case,  however,  mismatched grips are a sure bet that they have been replaced.  The same goes for scabbards.  From 1945 to 2020, the scabbards could have been changed dozens of times. In no way can you be sure whether or not it is original to the bayonet.  Good luck on your choice.

Marv

[9th Infantry Manchu]

Hi, I was researching 1943 dated UC M1s (uncut 10") and found this. I know from Bayo Points about 750,000 M1s were estimated, putting them on the higher end of the production. So not really "rare". But, do we know or has anyone estimated how rare the 1943 dated UCs are? Trying to decide to keep or return a recent bayo I just got. A crisp 1943 dated UC, catch and guard UC, visible stamp on the reverse tang, with AB grips. A beauty, but the seller showed it came in original package....but what I got was pretty far from that. I have un undated really nice UC M1 now...but no dated ones so the collector in me is screaming to just keep it....but the frugal side of my brain is disapointed and saying return it and watch for other opportunities.....only so much free $ for toys before the Mrs notices..... Ive googled around, tried to search ebay to get a feel for dated vs undated but didnt have much luck so any thoughts are sincerly appreciated. 

[hyrax222]

The dated M1's are a scarce and a challenge to collect. I have found the undated 1905 cutdowns (M1 or M1905E1) much more difficult to find...

The transitional US bayonets from 1943 are one of the most interesting and varied areas of M1905/M1 collecting, anything was possible, and some still lurk....