Chap15 Posted July 12, 2020 Share #1 Posted July 12, 2020 Thoughts on this 1902 German made sword. The name on the sword is William D. Cleary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted July 13, 2020 Share #2 Posted July 13, 2020 Odd, because the M1902 is specifically NOT for Chaplains... It looks like he made at least one star. 1946 Army Register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted July 13, 2020 Share #3 Posted July 13, 2020 David Atkinson has studied the WKC trademarks and says on his website that the company used that name between 1883-1930. I'd tend to think the saber was purchased close to his accession in 1918. https://www.loc.gov/item/2017830322/ https://chaplainkit.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/usarmychaplaincyhistory4-best_and_worst_of_times.pdf According to that book, he was the #2 Chaplain in the Army. Nice and unusual score for a Chaplain collector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chap15 Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share #4 Posted July 13, 2020 Any idea what year Solingen was added to the company and thus the mark on the sword? Also trying to find out the years he was with the occupation forces. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted July 13, 2020 Share #5 Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, Chap15 said: Any idea what year Solingen was added to the company and thus the mark on the sword? Also trying to find out the years he was with the occupation forces. Thanks. I imagine the Solingen mark was included from the beginning, but foreign manufacturers aren't my area so I don't know for sure. There's quite a bit of info on your guy in the Winter 1993 Chaplaincy Bulletin, free download in Google Books. https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Army_Chaplaincy/NW7nIrex5TYC To get granularity on his career, it would probably be worthwhile to request his military record from the NPRC once the Wuhan virus stuff dies down. https://www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/military-personnel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costa Posted July 13, 2020 Share #6 Posted July 13, 2020 the mark on the right side of the knights head is a WKC hallmark. company made edged weapons during WW2. not sure of the other marking. however, those 1902 swords were made by difference companies and usually sell for 250.00 to 350.00. not that much in demand but, are nicely made and etched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chap15 Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share #7 Posted July 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, Costa said: the mark on the right side of the knights head is a WKC hallmark. company made edged weapons during WW2. not sure of the other marking. however, those 1902 swords were made by difference companies and usually sell for 250.00 to 350.00. not that much in demand but, are nicely made and etched. Are you saying this sword was made during WWII? Why would TR wartime company make a U.S. sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costa Posted July 13, 2020 Share #8 Posted July 13, 2020 no--------------- pre war. many of the german makers of edged weapons were in business before ww1 and then onward. that sword may have been made in the later 20's or some time in the 30's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chap15 Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted July 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Costa said: no--------------- pre war. many of the german makers of edged weapons were in business before ww1 and then onward. that sword may have been made in the later 20's or some time in the 30's. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrobil Posted July 14, 2020 Share #10 Posted July 14, 2020 The king's head knight's head mark was actually the mark of WKC from some time in the 1800s until some point in the 1920s when the king's head was dropped and they used just the knight's head through WW2 and even post war. I believe they are still using it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted July 14, 2020 Share #11 Posted July 14, 2020 There were two prominent Solingen sword makers in the 19th century who merged in 1883 to form WKC. The one firm was Weyersberg and it used the king’s head logo to mark its swords. The other firm was Kirschbaum and it used the Knight’s head logo to mark its swords. After the 1883 merger, both heads side-by-side were used as the logo. This is what it shown on your sword. Later, WKC sometimes used the knight’s head alone as a logo, but never the king’s head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted July 14, 2020 Share #12 Posted July 14, 2020 In my experience this is a very scarce Model 1902 Army Officer sword for a long serving Chaplain. Since swords were non-regulation for a Chaplain they are few and far between but I have seen a few. I would think this sword is probably from the time between the wars due to its construction with a peened pommel and the early WK&C trade mark. I also find it interesting that "U.S.ARMY" was added to the etching after his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chap15 Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share #13 Posted July 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, SARGE said: In my experience this is a very scarce Model 1902 Army Officer sword for a long serving Chaplain. Since swords were non-regulation for a Chaplain they are few and far between but I have seen a few. I would think this sword is probably from the time between the wars due to its construction with a peened pommel and the early WK&C trade mark. I also find it interesting that "U.S.ARMY" was added to the etching after his name. Thank you for the comments. Why do you find it interesting that "U.S. ARMY" was added to the etching after his name? Thanks again, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted July 15, 2020 Share #14 Posted July 15, 2020 20 hours ago, Chap15 said: Thank you for the comments. Why do you find it interesting that "U.S. ARMY" was added to the etching after his name? Thanks again, These swords were generally etched with standardized paper templates that were stuck to the blade before being dipped into an acid bath to etch the design. These M1902 Army Officer swords usually had a space that was blank that was used to etch the owner's name by coating it with wax and hand cutting the name to expose it to the acid. The addition of anything else in this space is not standard because it cost more money, i.e. by the letter. So, someone paid extra for this etching from the factory and I seldom see anything else in this space. It does occur however and below is an example of a longer custom etching for an Adjutant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spathologist Posted July 15, 2020 Share #15 Posted July 15, 2020 Cleary's etching was very well done, doubtless an expensive option when he purchased the saber. I have an Ames M1902 with similar customized etching, but not as nicely done as on Cleary's saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted July 16, 2020 Share #16 Posted July 16, 2020 https://www.wkc-solingen.de/en/wkc/history http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-swords-third-reich/wkc-trademark-evolution-719841/ The crowned king of Weyersburg was sold by the Wundes family (Stephen off the top of my head) in the 1770s. Iirc, outlined in the forward of the Peterson old testament. The Kirschbaum knight mark is outlined in Bezdek and without looking, the 1850s timeline. The Kirschbaum family were an agents/sales/export business, not makers per se. The Weyersburg family did run forges and shops. Both marks appeared on some blades from 1883 until the Weimar period after WWI. Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Jerry Posted July 16, 2020 Share #17 Posted July 16, 2020 Great swords, I just wanted to add an interesting story- A friend of mine picked up a sword that a US veteran had brought back after WWII from Germany, he had gotten into one of those sword making companies and took the fanciest one he could find. Turns our it was a presentation 1902 pattern sword for US Army Officers, that was originally destined for the US market, but then the war happened and it stayed in the factory until it was "liberated" and brought back as a "German" souvenir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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