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USAF M16s and 38s questions


ffuries
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I was in the USAF from Jan 86 to Sept 08, and I'm wanting to do representations of the weapons I carried while I was in. Which were the M16A1 (I assume, I know the had triangular handguards), M16A2, 38 S&W and Beretta M9.

 

I seem to remember that the M16s we used in the USAF were mutts a lot of times. Trying to locate my Basic Training book (Yearbook), to see what the M16s looked like when we went to the range.

 

I have an AR15 done up like the M16A2 we carried later, with the round handguards, fixed sight rail with the later style rear sight, etc. I'm wanting to do a build of an AR like the ones we used when I came in, triangular handguards, old style rear sight and so on, oh and obviously the fixed sight rail.

 

Next question before the Aircrew switched to the Beretta M9, they carried S&W 38s. What I don't know is what version of the 38 we carried. As a Aircrew Life Support Technician we issued the side arms to the Aircrew, so we had to be qualified on that weapon. 

 

I remember, the 38s we carried were issued by the Security Police Armory, so I assume they came from their stocks. I've seen mention of M15, M10 etc but I don't have a clue.

 

Got a line on a Beretta M9 commerical (So that M9 is taken care of). 

 

So what was the standard Secuity Police issue model of S&W 38 in the mid 80s?

What was the actual model of the M16s we carried? Did they still have the old solid buttstock or did they have the trapdoor buttstock? My biggest issue is I wasn't that much into guns back then to pay attention. It wasn't until after I retired that I started collecting Mil-Surp weapons, and this nostalgia thing kicked in. 

 

Hopefully a fellow Air Force vet or a weapons nut will be able to answer my questions or steer me in the right direction. Thank you in advance for any help and information.

 

Here's a quick shot of my AR15A2 representation, not 100% authentic but it looks the part and does the trick.

 

20170701_175445a.jpg

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Cap Camouflage Pattern I

I cant say for certain what you used and hopefully someone better informed will chime in, but you likely had an M16 rather than an M16A1.

 

Although it is very widely assumed that the M16A1 suspected the M16, this is actually not the case. The AR-15 was first tested by the USAF and adopted and designated the M16. When the Army began testing it for their own use they wanted some changes, the largest of which was the addition of a bolt assist, their request was granted and was designated the XM16E1, later changed to M16A1. The USAF thought the bolt assist was pointless, and continued to procure the M16 in parallel with the army's procurement of thr M16A1. As various upgrades were made to the XM16E1 and M16A1 such as birdcage flash hiders, chrome lined bores, trapdoor stocks, the same changes were made on new production M16s. The airforce never adopted the M16A1, and continued to use the M16 until the mid 1980s when they adopted the M16A2. 

 

I dont know enough to say the airforce never used M16A1s, but if they did it would have been uncommon and the result of unusual circumstances.

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Retired Air Force aviator gun nut here. Handguns for both Security Forces and aircrews before the M9 Beretta were Smith&Wesson Model 15. All Air Force issue M16’s I saw in the 1970’s and 1980’s were slab side (without forward assist) M16A1’s with triangular handguards and either birdcage or three prong flash suppressors. I suspect that butt stocks were either earlier solid and/or later trap door depending upon date of issue. Air Force did not seem big on upgrading earlier issue rifles.

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Doctorofwar

A 4” bbl S&W M15 is probably the .38 your were referring to being issued in the 1980s.  Either blued finish or refinished by parkerizing.  Could have been the following S&W engineering change models  15-1, 15-2, 15-3.  
 

Interesting article from 2019 about the USAF retiring the last of its M15s.

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26810/the-usaf-is-finally-ditching-the-last-of-its-cold-war-revolvers-for-new-semi-auto-pistols

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All I can remember is the M16s we fired at Basic had the Atchisson Device on them, and they literally jammed every other round. 

 

Looked at my Basic Training book, while we didn't get pictures at the range, I found pictures in it from the same era. From the Basic book, looks just like yall said, no forward assist, and I can't really tell, but maybe a 3 prong suppressor. Two shots of the clearest pic is shown, plus two other pictures show the Atchisson Device on the rifles.

 

So I would need to do a none Forward Assisted build with either a 3 prong or Bird Cage suppressor with either a solid or trapdoor buttstock. To stay true with the 80s era USAF used M16. 

 

I recall seeing M16s that we got from CATM, that had the word Auto either taped over with Burst or struck out by EP with Burst etched above it. Like I said for many years the M16s I shot were real mutts with uppers and lowers that were nowhere near or close to the same color. I didn't see my first new rifle until I fired the A2, and was caught off guard by it. 

 

Also I used the Atchisson Device in Basic and at my first unit (California). I didn't fire actual 5.56 ammo until June of 1989 3 1/2 years after I joined, when I was in Germany. 

 

Thank yall for all the help this far and for all the input, it's been very helpful and educational.

 

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T Ambrosini

AF basic in 1981...  M16 with solid butt, three-finger flash suppressor and no bolt assist.  Periodic weapons qualification afterward through 2000 was a mish-mash of flash suppressors (three finger or cylinder) but the same basic weapon otherwise.  The standard sidearm was a S&W Model 15 until we transitioned to the M9 Barretta as previously mentioned

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8 hours ago, Av8er said:

Retired Air Force aviator gun nut here. Handguns for both Security Forces and aircrews before the M9 Beretta were Smith&Wesson Model 15. All Air Force issue M16’s I saw in the 1970’s and 1980’s were slab side (without forward assist) M16A1’s with triangular handguards and either birdcage or three prong flash suppressors. I suspect that butt stocks were either earlier solid and/or later trap door depending upon date of issue. Air Force did not seem big on upgrading earlier issue rifles.

 

Were our pre M16A2 guns also void of the shell deflector? 

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18 hours ago, ffuries said:

 

Were our pre M16A2 guns also void of the shell deflector? 

Correct. There was no shell deflector on any M16 upper before the M16A2, the shell deflector came with the M16A2 and every version since, through the M16A4 and M4 variants. The same goes for the early issue short versions of the M16 such as the GAU-5. I never saw a Air Force issue GAU-5 with a forward assist through the late 1980’s. Also, I may have slightly misspoke in my previous post when I referred to the M16A1. Technically, a M16A1 refers to the upgrades that included the “fence” around the magazine release button and a forward assist. Since later issue Air Force M16’s may have had a “fence,” but we’re still slab sided, with no forward assist, they are technically not M16A1’s. Here is a good reference link on the M16 lineage: http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/ModGde/RflGde/CmpGdeRfl.html

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54 minutes ago, Av8er said:

Correct. There was no shell deflector on any M16 upper before the M16A2, the shell deflector came with the M16A2 and every version since, through the M16A4 and M4 variants. The same goes for the early issue short versions of the M16 such as the GAU-5. I never saw a Air Force issue GAU-5 with a forward assist through the late 1980’s. Also, I may have slightly misspoke in my previous post when I referred to the M16A1. Technically, a M16A1 refers to the upgrades that included the “fence” around the magazine release button and a forward assist. Since later issue Air Force M16’s may have had a “fence,” but we’re still slab sided, with no forward assist, they are technically not M16A1’s. Here is a good reference link on the M16 lineage: http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/ModGde/RflGde/CmpGdeRfl.html

 

Again thank you to all that responded and answered my questions, and then some. Yalls knowledge was/is highly appreciated. I'm now pricing parts and looking for the parts to build a facsimile of the M16 we used in the 80s when I joined. 

 

Again thank you to all that replied and shared your knowledge with me. 

 

So I have an AR15 facsimile of the M16A2

Got a line on a Beretta M9 Commercial for the M9 Beretta

In the process of finding everything for a facsimile M16 build 

Hunting for a S&W 4 inch barrel M-15 in any of the following revisions 15-1, 15-2, 15-3.  

 

This will give me facsimiles of the weapons I carried. Still have my drop leg holster for the M9 from Enduring Freedom along with the M12 holster from Desert Storm.

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10 hours ago, ffuries said:

 

Again thank you to all that responded and answered my questions, and then some. Yalls knowledge was/is highly appreciated. I'm now pricing parts and looking for the parts to build a facsimile of the M16 we used in the 80s when I joined. 

 

Again thank you to all that replied and shared your knowledge with me. 

 

So I have an AR15 facsimile of the M16A2

Got a line on a Beretta M9 Commercial for the M9 Beretta

In the process of finding everything for a facsimile M16 build 

Hunting for a S&W 4 inch barrel M-15 in any of the following revisions 15-1, 15-2, 15-3.  

 

This will give me facsimiles of the weapons I carried. Still have my drop leg holster for the M9 from Enduring Freedom along with the M12 holster from Desert Storm.


Just a few quick notes on building a retro rifle. There are several dealers specializing in providing parts for retro rifle builds as it has become a popular hobby in recent years. A lot of the available parts are reproduction, so buyer beware, you get what you pay for. Also, remember that the A2 receiver is different than the The earlier M16 it has reinforced areas added to the rear strap behind the charging handle and to the front pivot pin which changes the profile. To build a true retro rifle you are going to need an earlier M16 style receiver which are not as common, harder to find, and more expensive. Also, remember that the handguard slip ring has a different profile, the current A2 slip ring is more delta shaped, while the earlier style is straight. The earlier, thinner, “pencil barrel,” is a 20” barrel with a 1-12 twist for 55gr bullets. Barrels are available and can be found with the front sight base installed, which means that it will already have a triangular handguard mount behind the front sight base. The A2 and later have a round handguard mount. Check out the AR15.COM website threads for more information on retro builds. For retro parts and receivers go to; NODAK SPUD, Brownells, and AR15sport as primary sources. AR15.COM posters will also recommend sources for parts. One note, Brownells sells great AR15 specific gunsmithing parts to make the build much easier, but they aren’t cheap and probably don’t make sense to purchase for a single build. Good luck.

 

Finally, I have a stripped slab side upper, I think it is a M16 upper and not a commercial AR15 upper that has a different from pivot hole. I need to check to see for sure, but I would be willing to sell it to you if you are interested, they are getting hard to find.

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I recommend you check out the site "retro black rifles".  You'll get details about the different Colt models and how they vary.

Strategic Air Command had about 8 thousand AR-15's (these are the ones with green painted furniture that eventually became black after repainting).  These are what Colt called models 601's. I got issued one of these while I was stationed at Offutt AFB in the mid 70's for re-qualifying, complete with the green paint. The Colt model 602 was next and the Air Force got a lot of those also.

The Colt 603 is the gun we commonly refer to as the XM16E1/ M16A1.  These didn't go to the Air Force.  The Air Force rifle was the Colt model 604.  The lower receiver could be a partial fence or a full fence lower and the upper receivers stayed without the forward assist.  Colt got the Air Force to sign an addendum to provide the 604's with the bolt carrier with the teeth cut in them for engaging the forward assist so they didn't need to make two different bolt carriers.

IMHO, I don't believe the Air Force had any M16's with forward assists in inventory until after 9/11 when the military's whole weapons procurement system was re-vamped.

Happy hunting.

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I had a friend in the CT ANG that deployed to Astan back around 04 or so and they still had M-16A1s with them.

 

I don't know how picky you will be with the M9 but I just learned unfortunately.  The brand new commercial M9s made in the past few years in TN are no longer marked similar to the DoD contract ones.  The left side of the slide no longer says US 9mm M9 Beretta USA etc.   They moved that to the right side of the slide above the part of the frame where is also says US 9mm M9.  Was very bummed to find that out on mine that was made earlier this year,  didn't even notice it on my pistol till I brought it home and started looking it over closer in the better lighting and looked at some pics of other pistols.  I thought maybe it was an error but after I emailed Beretta Customer Support, they informed me of the change at the TN plant.  Also what i was looking for in markings was "only on DoD pistols" which is crap since the commercial ones made in MD were very closely marked except for a few minor differences.   Its no more like a replica of the GI pistol.    Mine even came with a little orange sheet of paper saying the bit of reading the manual, since its not printed on the gun itself being a military replica.  Might as well print that on these new guns now.   Aside from that little glitch, its still a nice pistol.   Im looking to get a Smith Model 10-5 revolver and a M1911A1 of some sort to have a collection of VN to Present Army Aircrew sidearms.

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On 7/11/2020 at 7:19 PM, ffuries said:

All I can remember is the M16s we fired at Basic had the Atchisson Device on them, and they literally jammed every other round. 

 

Looked at my Basic Training book, while we didn't get pictures at the range, I found pictures in it from the same era. From the Basic book, looks just like yall said, no forward assist, and I can't really tell, but maybe a 3 prong suppressor. Two shots of the clearest pic is shown, plus two other pictures show the Atchisson Device on the rifles.

 

So I would need to do a none Forward Assisted build with either a 3 prong or Bird Cage suppressor with either a solid or trapdoor buttstock. To stay true with the 80s era USAF used M16. 

 

I recall seeing M16s that we got from CATM, that had the word Auto either taped over with Burst or struck out by EP with Burst etched above it. Like I said for many years the M16s I shot were real mutts with uppers and lowers that were nowhere near or close to the same color. I didn't see my first new rifle until I fired the A2, and was caught off guard by it. 

 

Also I used the Atchisson Device in Basic and at my first unit (California). I didn't fire actual 5.56 ammo until June of 1989 3 1/2 years after I joined, when I was in Germany. 

 

Thank yall for all the help this far and for all the input, it's been very helpful and educational.

 

20200711_202814.jpg

20200711_202844.jpg

20200711_211533.jpg

20200711_211544.jpg

 

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9 hours ago, mohawkALSE said:

I had a friend in the CT ANG that deployed to Astan back around 04 or so and they still had M-16A1s with them.

 

I don't know how picky you will be with the M9 but I just learned unfortunately.  The brand new commercial M9s made in the past few years in TN are no longer marked similar to the DoD contract ones.  The left side of the slide no longer says US 9mm M9 Beretta USA etc.   They moved that to the right side of the slide above the part of the frame where is also says US 9mm M9.  Was very bummed to find that out on mine that was made earlier this year,  didn't even notice it on my pistol till I brought it home and started looking it over closer in the better lighting and looked at some pics of other pistols.  I thought maybe it was an error but after I emailed Beretta Customer Support, they informed me of the change at the TN plant.  Also what i was looking for in markings was "only on DoD pistols" which is crap since the commercial ones made in MD were very closely marked except for a few minor differences.   Its no more like a replica of the GI pistol.    Mine even came with a little orange sheet of paper saying the bit of reading the manual, since its not printed on the gun itself being a military replica.  Might as well print that on these new guns now.   Aside from that little glitch, its still a nice pistol.   Im looking to get a Smith Model 10-5 revolver and a M1911A1 of some sort to have a collection of VN to Present Army Aircrew sidearms.

Sad to hear that Beretta has changed the markings on their newer M9’s for civilian sales. I picked up their 25th anniversary M9 back in 2011 as a present for my son when he returned from his first Afghan tour and was very pleased with how it was marked. As far as a M1911A1, it appears that the best value today are the ones being sold by the CMP if you can get on their lottery list. The reviews I have read on those show that the one being received are in better condition than the buyers expected. A lot of mixed parts due to Arsenal reconditioning, but just heard from one guy who got a late WWII Ithaca that was all matching Ithaca parts and no arsenal reconditioning markings.

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23 hours ago, mohawkALSE said:

I had a friend in the CT ANG that deployed to Astan back around 04 or so and they still had M-16A1s with them.

 

I don't know how picky you will be with the M9 but I just learned unfortunately.  The brand new commercial M9s made in the past few years in TN are no longer marked similar to the DoD contract ones.  The left side of the slide no longer says US 9mm M9 Beretta USA etc.   They moved that to the right side of the slide above the part of the frame where is also says US 9mm M9.  Was very bummed to find that out on mine that was made earlier this year,  didn't even notice it on my pistol till I brought it home and started looking it over closer in the better lighting and looked at some pics of other pistols.  I thought maybe it was an error but after I emailed Beretta Customer Support, they informed me of the change at the TN plant.  Also what i was looking for in markings was "only on DoD pistols" which is crap since the commercial ones made in MD were very closely marked except for a few minor differences.   Its no more like a replica of the GI pistol.    Mine even came with a little orange sheet of paper saying the bit of reading the manual, since its not printed on the gun itself being a military replica.  Might as well print that on these new guns now.   Aside from that little glitch, its still a nice pistol.   Im looking to get a Smith Model 10-5 revolver and a M1911A1 of some sort to have a collection of VN to Present Army Aircrew sidearms.

Markings aren't an issue with me, as long as it looks like the ones we carried I'm happy.

 

If they were like ARs and I would build one, an put the SN of the one I carried during Desert Storm on it. For some stupid reason, I still have the AF From 1297 Temporary Issue Receipt from it. But that is just dreaming. 

 

So like I said the markings are not an issue with me. Just like any M15 S&W I find won't be marked for the AF also. 

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On 7/14/2020 at 11:01 PM, ffuries said:

Markings aren't an issue with me, as long as it looks like the ones we carried I'm happy.

 

If they were like ARs and I would build one, an put the SN of the one I carried during Desert Storm on it. For some stupid reason, I still have the AF From 1297 Temporary Issue Receipt from it. But that is just dreaming. 

 

So like I said the markings are not an issue with me. Just like any M15 S&W I find won't be marked for the AF also. 

A number of S&W Model 15’s with 4” barrels are available on Gunbroker.com, but for whatever reason they are not cheap. There is even one with USAF markings currently on auction.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/873808382

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Revolver prices def seemed to go up.  Ive been looking around for a Smith 10-5 4" barrel, and even those seem to be a decent amount of money compared to what I used to see them a few years back.  Some of them are even really beat imports, saw they have import markings behind the SN.   Maybe Ill have to start checking local pawn shops.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I agree, gun prices continue to rise, including revolvers.  

 

Here’s a Smith & Wesson, US marked, model 10-5 that I picked up a few years ago.  It served two different Vietnam Army veterans. It was carried in this in-country made water buffalo hide leather holster.

 

 

25D48270-E833-4542-B1DD-FAF2E4485C45.jpeg

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That holster looks similar to the one my father had in Vietnam.  The holster actually also had some bullet loops as well for 6 rounds.   I cant tell, is that a square or round butt 10-5?

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10 minutes ago, mohawkALSE said:

That holster looks similar to the one my father had in Vietnam.  The holster actually also had some bullet loops as well for 6 rounds.   I cant tell, is that a square or round butt 10-5?

Square butt. Nice Buscadero style rig.

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This is the type holster my father had.  Didn't have any good straight on pics of him with it but this was another one of the pilots in his unit.  Not sure why he didnt have any ammo in any of the loops but you can see the 6 stack of them on the holster itself.   Didnt mean to crop it just on his rear end but the whole OH-6 pic was too large.

38rig.png

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8 hours ago, digi-shots said:

Mohawk.. great photo!  This Holster  also looks like it was made in-country.  What years did your father serve?

He was in Nam with the 101st 69-70.  That picture was from November 69.

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  • 1 year later...

With all the help in getting the facts straight that I got from yall, I finally finished my 604 build.

 

Slab side upper (No forward assist, no shell deflector).

Type D buttstock.

A1 pistol grip.

Triangular handguards. 

3 prong flashhider.

M1 style green sling.

20 inch pencil barrel. 

A1 rear sights.

A1 front sights. 

20 round magazine. 

Flat slip ring. 

 

I ended up using a full fence lower versus a partial fence lower, but then again USAF M16s were mutts anyways. I've thought of maybe changing the lower out in the future.......

 

Second picture has a Faux M4, the Faux M16 604, and a Faux M16A2 645. The 3 ARs in my collection now. 

 

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