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How can you determine if a M1 Bandolier is WWII?


MinorInHistory
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MinorInHistory

Hello all,

 

I was wondering, how can you tell if a M1 Garand bandolier is from the WWII era? Is there a certain material or marking that can be used to determine this? 
 

Thanks! 

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Okay, here are a few pics. Read carefully. The picture of the ones in the can are WW2 , they were not ink stamped but instead had purplish in color " lot cards" stating manufacture and loading lot numbers. These are pristine DEN 43 dated M2 ball rounds on clips ( C) that were repacked into Korean War era.50 cal ammo cans  purchased directly from the CMP years ago.

 

The other single one with the TW markings and ink stampings ( 8 rds in enbloc) is straight out of a can I opened a few years ago and the lot number translates to 1952 agreeing with the headstamp. The bandoleers and enblocs are WW2 issue, huge quantities were surplus after WW2 and as they no longer issued lot cards the WW2 bandoleers were inked with the loading data. So, recap, the TW 52 fresh made ammo was loaded into surplus WW2 enblocs and bandoleers.

 

Notice the color and strap thickness.spacer.pngspacer.pngimage.jpeg.f950389fd886f9ae23f89c4a940d91ea.jpegimage.jpeg.af461b71bdda9f8a3a59e53197f4ea95.jpegimage.jpeg.64f82e8e0891b0e919fa1ccf0a5a97f3.jpeg

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MinorInHistory

Ok, thanks for the information you guys. That was something I had been wondering about for a while. 
 

MinorInHistory 

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Just to be clear, the photo of the ammo cans in the wire crate show post-war ammo cans.  
 

I believe the  bandoleers also came in wooden Crates like the .50 cal wooden crates.  
 

I don’t have the link handy, but there is/was an ammo can website that covers all of this in detail.  I’ll try to find the link later.

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10 hours ago, Steve B. said:

Just to be clear, the photo of the ammo cans in the wire crate show post-war ammo cans.  
 

I believe the  bandoleers also came in wooden Crates like the .50 cal wooden crates.  
 

I don’t have the link handy, but there is/was an ammo can website that covers all of this in detail.  I’ll try to find the link later.

Right, the example of mine I have posted is WW2 issued ammo repacked into Korean War era cans. WW2 issued ammo typically came in wooden crates that held metal  cans. Here is a 1941 dated can ( crate) recently opened  containg 1941 FA Blanks packed in 20 round cardboard boxes. Typical WW2 packaging, could be M2 clipped in cartons, M2 in enblocs and bandoleers, etc. I have a few examples of original WW2, repacked WW2, WW2 repacked for the Korean War, and even post Korea. I opened a few to sell off as they do not much good sitting unopened( and after a few years became curious about their condition). All examples are getting extremely hard to find ( I will use the word rare) and I especially like the crisp, as issued WW2 .30 M2 AP in enblocs.image.jpeg.691988ab1fc22bbc38779c8f933495b3.jpegimage.jpeg.d57bd5962bd90067a3104476fd68e705.jpegimage.jpeg.5cd7591f35ded9222a85b02548e2e8f6.jpeg

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I posted before, my collection in its infancy. The WW2 tracer, incendiary and API are hen's teethe, along with the WW1 rounds I had aquired. My absolute favorite are the WW1 boxed rounds for " aircraft use only"....I will see if I can find them and post if interested. Note: the HXP CMP stuff and after market packaged stuff I shoot up, the sealed spam cans I now keep along with any WW2 dated ammo, crates, cans or clothe belted MG stuff. WW2 issued enblocs seem to be a rarity these days so I pick them up when found. If enough interest, I can take more pictures of some of the original, rarely seen stuff.image.jpeg.b87ca59cdcfd9eb6fea63fcc2c1d139b.jpegimage.jpeg.0f5db06cc4d3e178e4864a11dbf991cb.jpegimage.jpeg.b5def8ffb0eb74ac986c51f80b37dcaf.jpeg

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Any interest in seeing more? Nope. None at all. Not even the tiniest bit interested. But if you want to post some, I may look at it just to be polite.

 

Mikie

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  • 3 months later...
armysoldierant1944

Interesting thread. Got some questions though:

 

Were 30-06 bandoliers in very late WW2 (1945) marked with the lot numbers?

 

Were M1 carbine rounds issued in bandoliers during WW2? If yes, were the bandos also unmarked? Were they marked in very late WW2?

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IMR= Improved Military Rifle. Plenty of folks still use it for reloading (including me). I use 4895. Your bandoleers appear to be prewar

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armysoldierant1944
1 hour ago, iron bender said:

IMR= Improved Military Rifle. Plenty of folks still use it for reloading (including me). I use 4895. Your bandoleers appear to be prewar

Thank you so much for your inputs Iron Bender....so reading between the lines, this bandoliered ammo was intended for civilian use?

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I can't answer your question, but my first thought is this is USGI ammo, given the tags, and it's in bandoleers. Lots of guys on this forum have access to ammo lot numbers. I don't, it's never really been my collecting area. Assuming it's in 5 round clips? What's the ammo head stamp? I'd guess it's in brass strippers with a mid 30's date?

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armysoldierant1944
1 hour ago, iron bender said:

I can't answer your question, but my first thought is this is USGI ammo, given the tags, and it's in bandoleers. Lots of guys on this forum have access to ammo lot numbers. I don't, it's never really been my collecting area. Assuming it's in 5 round clips? What's the ammo head stamp? I'd guess it's in brass strippers with a mid 30's date?

Yeah I think its military issue too. No ammo with the bandoliers.....

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No lot charts to confirm, however your bandoleers and lot cards are early WW2 or possibly pre 1941 USGI issue. A few pictures of the cardboards may determine if they were filled with 5 round stripper clips or en blocs. You have harder to find examples, FA marked WW2 cartridges are out there but not in any great number. I would be on the lookout to find some to fill a few pockets, get some pics of the cardboards.

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Richard, your bandoleer and lot card are from the late 1930s. FA M1 Ball was made until the end of 1941 (ending with lot # 2161). Bandoleer material from that time period are usually a medium-weight cotton twill with no markings. Army regs. required lot numbers be printed on the bandoleer in WWI, with a lot card placed in a pocket. The regs. then dropped external markings after WWI, but still required a lot card in one pocket. The unmarked bandoleer continued until early 1945, when the regs. dropped the lot card in favor of printing on the outside again, usually on both ends.

 

During WWII, bandoleer material changed to a lightweight cotton broadcloth, probably as a cost-saving measure considering how many needed to be made. Your cardboard sleeves are for 5-round stripper clips. The 8-round enblocs used a shorter sleeve. Finally, bandoleers of that time period were shipped in wooden shipping boxes with a sealed metal liner. The bandoleers were stacked loosely in the box. Here are photos of both types of sleeves for the bandoleer pockets. The sleeves covered the cartridges up to the strippers or enblocs, hence the height difference. The lighter colored sleeves are my replicas. The last photo shows an early shipping box.

thumbnail_IMG_5979.jpg

thumbnail_IMG_5981.jpg

pix091011508.jpg

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As an addendum to an earlier question, carbine ammo was only issued in 50 round cartons during WWII. Carbine rounds packed in bandoleers on stripper clips didn't come into widespread use until Korea.

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armysoldierant1944
On 11/9/2020 at 11:16 AM, silverplate said:

Richard, your bandoleer and lot card are from the late 1930s. FA M1 Ball was made until the end of 1941 (ending with lot # 2161). Bandoleer material from that time period are usually a medium-weight cotton twill with no markings. Army regs. required lot numbers be printed on the bandoleer in WWI, with a lot card placed in a pocket. The regs. then dropped external markings after WWI, but still required a lot card in one pocket. The unmarked bandoleer continued until early 1945, when the regs. dropped the lot card in favor of printing on the outside again, usually on both ends.

 

During WWII, bandoleer material changed to a lightweight cotton broadcloth, probably as a cost-saving measure considering how many needed to be made. Your cardboard sleeves are for 5-round stripper clips. The 8-round enblocs used a shorter sleeve. Finally, bandoleers of that time period were shipped in wooden shipping boxes with a sealed metal liner. The bandoleers were stacked loosely in the box. Here are photos of both types of sleeves for the bandoleer pockets. The sleeves covered the cartridges up to the strippers or enblocs, hence the height difference. The lighter colored sleeves are my replicas. The last photo shows an early shipping box.

thumbnail_IMG_5979.jpg

thumbnail_IMG_5981.jpg

pix091011508.jpg

Thank you Charlie! Very useful information. Love the ammo box!

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armysoldierant1944
7 hours ago, silverplate said:

As an addendum to an earlier question, carbine ammo was only issued in 50 round cartons during WWII. Carbine rounds packed in bandoleers on stripper clips didn't come into widespread use until Korea.

Thanks Charlie. You stated " Carbine rounds packed in bandoleers on stripper clips didn't come into widespread use until Korea." So in late WW2 there were some that were packed in bandoleers on stripper clips (with the spoon), though very uncommon? If so, these would be very, very hard to find.

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Carbine ammo was never packed in bandoleers during WWII, only cartons. Carbine ammunition production was terminated in 1945 as the plants were closed, although Frankford did continue limited production and developmental work. Production  then resumed again in 1950 for Korea, and that's when bandoleers with carbine rounds were introduced.

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armysoldierant1944
1 hour ago, silverplate said:

Carbine ammo was never packed in bandoleers during WWII, only cartons. Carbine ammunition production was terminated in 1945 as the plants were closed, although Frankford did continue limited production and developmental work. Production  then resumed again in 1950 for Korea, and that's when bandoleers with carbine rounds were introduced.

Got it Charlie. Thank you!

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