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Hard Times for [Wing] Collectors


cwnorma
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Fellow Wing-nuts,

 

I wanted to get something off my chest.  This doesn't apply to most here, and I personally thank you for being the great, knowledgable, and honest people that you are--but perhaps those it does apply to will read this.

 

As most of you know, I collect WW1 Air Service, and specialize in WW1 wing badges.  Like many other scarce Militaria items, they can be expensive and valuable.  Those who know me know I do everything I can, always free of charge, to help people make good buying decisions with respect to WW1 wings.

 

Recently, the third time since this COVID-19 based economic downturn began, I was approached by a collector to; make an offer, help them price, or otherwise help them dispose of a WW1 wing badge.  In each case, I had to be the bearer of bad news that the badge in question was a worthless reproduction.

 

Similarly, in each case, the person was crestfallen.  Suddenly confronted with their bad decision and realizing that the "trustworthy" person they had bought the wings from was a merely a fraudulent grifter; bills were looming and they were counting on getting that money back to make ends meet...

 

So this note is to the fakers and dishonest sellers.  The willful and knowing passers of worthless gimcracks and gewgaws who prey on ignorance for their ill-gotten gains.  Those who use "caveat emptor" as their personal dishonesty shield rationalizing sales of fakes because; "those rubes should do their homework" or "a fool and his money..."  

 

Somewhere, there is someone in a difficult position--all so you could make a fast buck.

 

Chris

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Chris, well said.

 

I too recall those early heady days when I had more lust than common sense (for all things related to cold beer, rare wings and pretty girls)!  I was only saved from myself and a life time of regrets and bad choices by limited funds (ironically enough for those choices I made for acquiring cold beer, rare wings and pretty girls).  In those days before the internet, mostly your only source of information were a few badly xeroxed "books", the Trading Post and Wing Ding news letters, and heading to an ASMIC show or the Great Western to talk to dealers and other collectors (the Great Brain Trusts).  I am pretty sure baby birds jumping out of the nest into a yard full of hungry cats would have felt right at home with me as I walked into Building 7 at Pomona with my carefully saved up 150$ budget for wings. At least I had the good sense to not try collecting Nazi stuff!

 

Everyone has a box of tears, as Russ calls it.  I call mine the "Box of Ramen Noodles", because that was all I could afford to eat until the next month's pay check.  But I vowed never to be "that guy" who screwed over someone for a few bucks.  This forum has been great for people and I especially enjoy that there are many people with different levels of knowledge in diverse subjects who are willing to share.  Of course, knowledge on the internet is like sharing a sip from a  homeless guy's slurpy in the parking lot of 7-11, it isn't always great or useful knowledge or insight that you get, but at least 1 or 2 fellows will be able to direct you to some level of truth.  In fact, more and more primary research and proof is offered now (see the weekly WWI wings posts).

 

But sometimes I miss being hustled by "Honest Joe Dealer".  Quick with a smile and a ricker mount full of strangely similar WWI Dallas Wings.

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2 hours ago, pfrost said:

Everyone has a box of tears...

 

"Box of tears."  "Box of Ramen Noodles."  I call mine the "Hall of Shame"

 

1068729271_JPEGimage-641B22927B79-1.jpeg.f06586644e3f5669660f742e578e2422.jpeg

 

Not all of the above were "mistakes" in the strictest sense of the word, some were bought by others and gifted to me for study--but all have found their way into the Hall of Shame.  Every one of the above badges though was marketed by a dealer as an original.  Several of them are die struck.  Several have a separately applied US--two of them actual gold.  All of them are fake.  Of all, the one that stings the worst is that half wing.  Years ago, in my own heady days of; ignorance, beer, pretty girls, and wings, I endorsed that badge for a friend.  Years later while thinning out his collection he found it and asked me if I wanted it.  The whole incident came rushing back!  I ended up paying him his full buying price [He said; "Don't worry about it," I insisted--it was my fault he bought it] and into the Hall of Shame it went.

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huntssurplus

Although I wouldn't call myself a wing collector, I do try to learn in case I run across some in the future + when I do have a wing on a uniform, it is useful to use this information to look over the information to determine if the wing in question is original. 

However, I believe the sentiments shared by Chris fall under pretty much any of the collecting fields. It is unfortunate to come across a helmet, uniform, etc that is the centerpiece of someones collection only for them to be told it is indeed a fake. And we all have our own "Hall of Shame" as well, albeit it can be used to learn rather than hold our lost money and tears. It is unfortunate this is the reality of collecting, especially historical objects, but anything that has value will be exploited, and i'm sure we would all prefer the items we have to hold value opposed to literally just being "junk".

 

At least with the forum these days, reference books, time, knowledge, experience, and wisdom we can all learn from our mistakes and be better collectors. 

 

Hunt

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     My uncle gave me a British naval cutlass/bayonet when I was 12.   One day I rode my bike to the local mall and there was an antique show there with an older man who had some military items (muskets, helmets, etc) and he had a WWII German police shako that struck my fancy.  After talking with him he indicated he was open to trades so I went back home and had my parents bring me back with my fledgling collection of the cutlass and an Italian bayonet that I had picked up at a flea market and a short sword that I had been given.  The old man told me that his shako was much more valuable but he would trade for the cutlass and bayonet.  We did the deal and to make a long story short when I got older I found that he had given me a shako that was made up of parts and was junk for what I found out was my Confederate marked 1859 British naval cutlass/bayonet with scabbard (maybe 18 known to exist) and an Italian Carcano folding bayonet.  I was able to hang on to the Russian engineers/pioneers short sword because he thought it was French and worthless.  I had it for another 40 years before it and most of my collection (WWI and Civil War) was stolen. 

     I started over with wing collecting 4 years ago.  I ran into an Aerial Gunners wing at a shop and it was cheap and real and I was hooked ( the collecting didn't stay cheap!).  The next two wings I bought were the NS Meyer restrikes you see here and then I discovered Bob's site and the forum here.  The Josten CP is quite insidious and was an online purchase.  The glider is a piece of junk and I bought it online without thinking.  I knew better;  that's why that one ruffles my feathers and the one at the bottom is a real sweetheart piece but has been modified.  

     All of this being said, thanks to all of you for helping me learn wing collecting and the history associated with them.  I can't tell you how many times I have read and reread threads over particular wings and compared pictures of real wings vs a wing I am thinking of purchasing and the personal assistance has been refreshing.  If I can pass on any hard earned knowledge, please let me know.  

 

20200619_214158_copy_973x880.jpg

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 1:40 PM, cwnorma said:

Fellow Wing-nuts,

Recently. . .  I was approached by a collector to; make an offer, help them price, or otherwise help them dispose of a WW1 wing badge.  In each case, I had to be the bearer of bad news that the badge in question was a worthless reproduction.

 

Similarly, in each case, the person was crestfallen.  Suddenly confronted with their bad decision and realizing that the "trustworthy" person they had bought the wings from was a merely a fraudulent grifter. . .

 

 

Chris,

 

Re: "Caveat Emptor"

 

Without question, swindlers who prey on unsuspecting collectors will always be around; therefore, I don't have any words of wisdom to share that haven't already been expressed but I would like to point out a named WW1 Balloon Observer uniform currently being offered on eBay that caught my eye. 

 

While the uniform itself may have actually belonged to the Balloon Observer in question, and the dealer selling it may be doing so in good faith, the Observer half-wing attached to the uniform is a fake.  It is also similar in construction to both the Observer half-wing and Balloon Aeronaut badges in your Box of Tears.  

 

RARE VINTAGE WWI USAAS 2nd LT L.A. FARGE JR. BALLOON OBSERVER PILOT UNIFORM BELT

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-WWI-USAAS-2nd-LT-L-A-FARGE-JR-BALLOON-OBSERVER-PILOT-UNIFORM-BELT/254629172355?hash=item3b4914d483:g:-4wAAOSwTWNe7CMc

 

Fake.jpg.5f803cd05fc6266aec1613f5a078de66.jpg

 

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 12:40 PM, cwnorma said:

Fellow Wing-nuts,

 

I wanted to get something off my chest.  This doesn't apply to most here, and I personally thank you for being the great, knowledgable, and honest people that you are--but perhaps those it does apply to will read this.

 

As most of you know, I collect WW1 Air Service, and specialize in WW1 wing badges.  Like many other scarce Militaria items, they can be expensive and valuable.  Those who know me know I do everything I can, always free of charge, to help people make good buying decisions with respect to WW1 wings.

 

Recently, the third time since this COVID-19 based economic downturn began, I was approached by a collector to; make an offer, help them price, or otherwise help them dispose of a WW1 wing badge.  In each case, I had to be the bearer of bad news that the badge in question was a worthless reproduction.

 

Similarly, in each case, the person was crestfallen.  Suddenly confronted with their bad decision and realizing that the "trustworthy" person they had bought the wings from was a merely a fraudulent grifter; bills were looming and they were counting on getting that money back to make ends meet...

 

So this note is to the fakers and dishonest sellers.  The willful and knowing passers of worthless gimcracks and gewgaws who prey on ignorance for their ill-gotten gains.  Those who use "caveat emptor" as their personal dishonesty shield rationalizing sales of fakes because; "those rubes should do their homework" or "a fool and his money..."  

 

Somewhere, there is someone in a difficult position--all so you could make a fast buck.

 

Chris

well told--------------- this kind of crap has been going on way back from when I started collecting and continues today and here too. more proof--------- take a good hard look on ebay and all the crap passed off as the real deal. some of these clowns don't care who they screw and I have contacted some and told them so as to the crap they are attempting to pass off. its a shame for we have seen the damage done with the fake helmet syndrome going back.

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1 hour ago, CliffP said:

...Without question, swindlers who prey on unsuspecting collectors will always be around; therefore, I don't have any words of wisdom to share that haven't already been expressed ...

Cliff,

 

As always, thank you for the kind words.  

 

I think the hardest part for me was being thrust into the role of the third party breaking the bad news.  Perhaps because I am a "fellow collector" and not a "dealer" so I am not confronted with this particular experience very often and thus may have more empathy for collectors...  Not one of the gentlemen particularly wanted to sell their wing badges, but all of them needed to raise funds.  Seeing that it was an emotional experience for them, also took a toll on me.  The only positive is that the two dealers who are still alive will be hearing from these gentlemen.

 

These are hard times for some right now and reports indicate suicide rates are climbing.  Economic hardship takes a heavy toll on people's psyche.  The swindlers who sold those badges may have rationalized that they weren't doing any real harm.  Perhaps in normal times it wouldn't have mattered.  But today, months into the pandemic, the price of a WW1 wing badge could easily mean a not-missed mortgage payment or food on the table.

 

Again, thanks Cliff and the rest of you wing-nuts for allowing me this catharsis.  

 

Best wishes!

 

Chris

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On 6/19/2020 at 1:40 PM, cwnorma said:

Fellow Wing-nuts,

 

I wanted to get something off my chest.  This doesn't apply to most here, and I personally thank you for being the great, knowledgable, and honest people that you are--but perhaps those it does apply to will read this.

 

As most of you know, I collect WW1 Air Service, and specialize in WW1 wing badges.  Like many other scarce Militaria items, they can be expensive and valuable.  Those who know me know I do everything I can, always free of charge, to help people make good buying decisions with respect to WW1 wings.

 

Recently, the third time since this COVID-19 based economic downturn began, I was approached by a collector to; make an offer, help them price, or otherwise help them dispose of a WW1 wing badge.  In each case, I had to be the bearer of bad news that the badge in question was a worthless reproduction.

 

Similarly, in each case, the person was crestfallen.  Suddenly confronted with their bad decision and realizing that the "trustworthy" person they had bought the wings from was a merely a fraudulent grifter; bills were looming and they were counting on getting that money back to make ends meet...

 

So this note is to the fakers and dishonest sellers.  The willful and knowing passers of worthless gimcracks and gewgaws who prey on ignorance for their ill-gotten gains.  Those who use "caveat emptor" as their personal dishonesty shield rationalizing sales of fakes because; "those rubes should do their homework" or "a fool and his money..."  

 

Somewhere, there is someone in a difficult position--all so you could make a fast buck.

 

Chris

 

Well Chris, you, Pat and others have bailed my butt out from buying some fakes. 

 

It certainly is a bummer having to tell someone they have bought a fake. But nearly all collectors have purchased a fake at one time or another. 

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Hi Chris,

 

An interesting topic and I had a similar experience with a local collector very recently (some high end German badges though, some bought from a now defuct US source, others from a still operating UK source, all purchased over 20 years ago). Some collectors take the news well - they just want to know the truth and will trash a repro. Others don't believe you and will try and get rid of it as original because that's what they were told when they bought it (or worse, they do believe you and sell it as an original anyway). So collectors can be just as bad as dodgy sellers when $$ are involved. Having said that, even repros have some value (eg as a cheap display piece or filler) and I have no problems with someone selling a fake as a fake.

 

In the pre-internet/e-mail and pre-digital image days, yes, there are plenty of reasons why collectors pretty much had to trust a dealer's word (or a fellow collector's word) because there was almost no way of validating their assertions. I've been there and been stung along the way like most others. Some of those dealers were stand-up guys and would do the right thing even years later, some would get dirty and put you on their blacklist after reluctantly doing the right thing and the ones who would sell their mother for a loaf of bread would just laugh at you (on a nice day) but all types could talk the leg off a table and sell ice to eskimos. Caveat Emptor was much harder to achieve due to the lack of available references. I really feel for guys who trusted a dealer's word implicitly. Worse, those who stayed loyal to a crook (multiple purchases over years) without knowing it and actually passed over genuine items because they did not look like the fakes they'd been buying as "genuine". That category takes the bad news the hardest because it's a double whammy - misplaced trust and large sums of money lost.

 

These days it's a slightly different story. I am a collector but will sell items to buy others when required - I figured out a long time ago I can't have everything! I guarantee the authenticity of what I pass on based on the research I have done but I don't profess to be an expert in anything - absolutely anyone, including self-professed experts, can make honest mistakes. Having said that, I HAVE used the phrase "Caveat Emptor" because these days these is NO excuse for buying a fake. I always have the phrase in the back of my mind when I'm contemplating buying something as well. Basically, if you don't know EXACTLY what you are buying, you should NOT be buying it. Despite how harsh or heartless it may sound, these days if you don't do you research with the multiple hard-copy and digital sources available (even if it's just another online "it is original" question), you honestly deserve what you get. 

 

Happy collecting - not investing!

 

Regards

Mike

 

 

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there is a reason for buying a repro,its called MONEY. not everyone has the means to buy the real deal but wants one to display. now passing one off as original is another story ,that's just plain wrong.

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5thwingmarty

To me the sad thing is that you can go to almost every online militaria site that offers wings and find wings that are either obvious restrikes, outright fakes, or misidentified as much more valuable examples than they really are.  No one is infallible, but some of the wings being offered are clearly not what they are listed as being.

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