MEYER WING PATTERNS

[jeff41st]

I have several questions regarding this MEYER wing pattern. Was wondering where this wing pattern fits into the MEYER wing family?  Does this pattern have a name or what is this pattern commonly referred to as for reference? I know they are considered a WWII-era wing, but any ideas on what period of time they were produced (e.g., Pre-WWII to Post-WWII)?  And also, are there other ratings that this pattern is found in?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[jeff41st]

To follow-up on the post by Phantomf4 regarding this pattern wing

 

 

and Patricks response, I still have questions about Meyer hallmarked wings in this pattern and their relationship to the other Meyer wing patterns. If this pattern of wing was being made as early as the 1930s, where then do you other collectors place Meyer hallmarked wings in this pattern in relationship to the other Meyer wing patterns, particularly the 1st and 2nd pattern Meyer wings?

 

[5thwingmarty]

I am not aware of any other ratings that share the same exact pattern for the wing details as these Observer and Observer-based wings.  It is my understanding that the pelican beak style Meyer wings were a later pattern, and this style to have been an earlier one.  Presuming Meyer continued to make Pilot and Observer wings between WWI and WWII, I would say this is a pre-WWII to WWII pattern.  The hollow-back varieties are not uncommon with Meyer hallmarks, but I don't know if any of the slick-back or recessed center back wings have Meyer hallmarks.  As the hollow back Meyer-hallmarked Pilot wings are most similar to the hollow-back Observer wings, and there are attributed pre-WWII Meyer Pilot wings in this pattern, I would guess the hallmarked hollow-back Observers might also tend towards being pre-WWII.  But, as the Bombardier wing shown in this thread shows, the hollow-back hallmarked versions were still being used during the war.  I don't recall seeing the slick-back version used to make other ratings, but you see quite a few of the recessed-back versions used for Aerial Gunner wings.

[jeff41st]

Great information Marty, thank you.

 

So to followup then (please correct me if any of the following statement is incorrect),  this pattern of wing more than likely was produced after the pattern commonly referred to the 1st pattern Meyer and production may have overlapped with the 1st pattern for some period of time. And this pattern was produced prior to what is commonly referred to as the 2nd pattern Meyer wing with its production definitely overlapping the 2nd pattern?

 

Does this pattern of Meyer wing have a nickname or is referred to in any particular way? 

[5thwingmarty]

I don't know if this will clear anything up or just muck the waters more.  For Meyer PILOT wings, I have typically seen referenced to three types:

Type 1 - Adams style, probably dating to the 1920's but still common in WWII

Type 2 - Pelican beak style with the notch in the center, generally attributed from WWII to the 1950's

Type 3 - Pelican beak style without the notch in the center, attributed by at least so to the 1950's and beyond

 

Here is a thread that discussed these three styles.  I am not aware of any other common names for these three styles.

In addition to the Pilot wings, Meyer also made (at least) two other AAC wings in the 1920's-30's, Observer wings and Airship Pilot wings.  Although made during the same period, the wings for all three of these rating are distinctly different, most notably in the shoulder feather details.  The Meyer Airship wings have shoulder feather details similar to Kinney and AECo and From Official Die Airship wings.  The Meyer Pilot wings have shoulder feather details very similar to those on Noble, Robbins and Josten wings, and the 1st pattern Meyer Observer wings have these exaggerated should feathers.  Meyer also had Observer wings in the 2nd pattern.  I am not aware of them in the 3rd pattern.

 

I don't believe there is any hard evidence as to when each pattern was introduced or discontinued.  We do know the 2nd pattern wings were made "for collectors" with the original dies well after the war.  The Airship wings were also made "for collectors" from the original dies well after the war.  

 

Hopefully this helps.

[B-17Guy]

I don't ever recall a collector's assignment of pattern numbers to anything but Pilot Wings.

1st, 2nd and 3rd as far as I know only refers to Pilot badges.

Anything else must be evaluated separately in my opinion.

Here are the patterns in the following three posts that I and the collector's I know go by...

[B-17Guy]

First Pattern, probably first produced in the 1920's and seen to mid WWII.

It was stuck in Brass, Sterling and Nickel.

This example is brass.

 

[B-17Guy]

Second Pattern, appeared mid-late WWII.

Know as a pelican beak style and I have only seen these in Sterling.

[B-17Guy]

Third pattern, appeared at the end of WWII and seen very much in the post war years.

This example is engraved and dated 1954.

[jeff41st]

Great information guys, thanks.

 

I was aware of the Meyer pattern/type 1st, 2nd and 3rd designations, but did not know that the use of pattern numbers was in regards to pattern of the pilot wings.  

 

 

[Tesla]

I actually have a second pattern pilot without the Sterling mark; I'll try to get some pics soon.

[pfrost]

There are a couple of things to know about N S Meyer wings.

1) I believe that there were multiple manufacturers making NS Meyer labeled wings (this information came from JoeW -- to be fair and give appropriate credit where it is due).  According to him this is why there are so many variations in the hallmarks.  That seems like a fair enough piece of information.

2) While I doubt that there is any "clear line of demarcation" you can start to see when the various ratings were authorized and when the wings started to appear.  It is unlikely that a wing pattern was made prior to that particular rating being authorized, so all the various pattern III (or II rating depending on how you count them) preceded the official government authorization.  So the aircrew, navigator, alphabet wings, gunner, bombardier, etc, were probably all made in 1942 or later on the pattern III (II) first style pelican beak wings.  The pattern IV (III) second style pelican beak wings have the 9M and 22M hallmarks and don't show up in the same patterns as the first pelican beak wings, suggesting that they were made POST WWII.  It is also clear that the WWI pattern wing was replaced by the postWWI Adams style wing (likely around 1919-1920).  This wing pattern seemed to have been used from that time until WWII.  Stars were added to those wings in 1937 and the command pilot wreath in 1940 when those ratings were authorized.  There seems to have been some time-dependent "star types" (with or with out stilts) that may also provide some additional dating clues. 

The balloon ratings, airship and TO wings seem to have been made using a "Adam's style" wing pattern (similar by not exactly identical to the Pattern II). Since most of these wings rating were clearly obsolete by 1942, you never see these wings in the Pattern III or pattern IV pelican beak patterns.  There were at least 2 Aircraft observer wing patterns.  The one that started this thread appears to have been used pre-WWII. But 1942, there is a Pattern III Pelican beak I observer and senior observer wing.  I have no proof, but if I had to make a bet, I would bet that the early aircraft observer wing was used starting in 1919 or so.  There are (IIRC) some early pilot/observer (the observer wing with the US in the middle) wing made by NS Meyer's in this pattern.  So I expect that this pattern of aircraft observer (lets call it Pattern II AO) was used up til 1942.

 

I think that this post only adds a bit to the information by Marty and John.  But I thought maybe a handy dandy chart would be of interest.

[pfrost]

As to the observer wing, there seems to have been at least 5 patterns (but I won't talk about the post WWII USAF patterns).

 

Pattern I 1917-1919:  First I believe that there was a NS Meyer Observer wing in WWI (either as a half wing with the shield or as a half wing with the Gothic "O".  This wing used the "classic" NS Meyer wing design of that period, but as a half wing.

 

Pattern II  1919-WWII: this is the wing pattern that started the conversation.  There is a similar pattern as the Pilot/Observer wing that was only authorized in 1921.  I believe that these Aircraft Observer wings probably date from 1919 (about the same time as the Adams design was authorized). The Pattern II wing was clearly used  up to WWII and was even the base for many ca1942 ratings. 

 

Pattern III 1942-1945:  This pattern wing shows up at the balloon observer and technical observer wings.  The balloon observer wing was obsolete very quickly (perhaps only worn by "legacy observers from the pre-WWII era balloon corps) and the TO wing doesn't seem to have been very popular and is rather rare.  But this Pattern III is unique from Pattern II and can probably be dated to right around 1942.

 

Pattern IV 1942-1948:  These are the Pelican beak I wings.  The observer and senior observer were probably worn from 1942 until around the KW and establishment of the USAF, when a new observer wing pattern was developed.  I am sure that there was a fair amount of "phase-in/phase out" while the new and old badges were used.

 

But this should give you all a pretty good idea of the time periods of the various NS Meyer observer patterns.  Again, I am not adding anything new, and I took liberal "fair use" borrowing of images off of the internet and this forum.

[jeff41st]

1 hour ago, pfrost said:

But I thought maybe a handy dandy chart would be of interest.

 

👍

 

2 hours ago, pfrost said:

So I expect that this pattern of aircraft observer (lets call it Pattern II AO) was used up til 1942.

I've already updated my wing collection spread sheet with this new pattern designation and cited you as the source 😁

 

Is the "Pattern I (WWI version)" in your chart Meyer hallmarked?

 

[pfrost]

The WWI NS Meyer wing is hallmarked.  There are a number of very similar wings made by different companies, including Robbins, WLink and NS Meyers.

[cwnorma]

15 minutes ago, jeff41st said:

Is the "Pattern I (WWI version)" in your chart Meyer hallmarked?

 

 

Here is a thread on WW1 era NS Meyer/I Scheuer wings:

 

 

[5thwingmarty]

I will only quibble about a couple of dates in Patrick's charts.  The Command Pilot, Technical Observer, Senior Balloon Pilot, Balloon Pilot and Balloon Observer (with the O on the balloon) ratings and badges were all authorized and illustrated in 1940.  The Airship Pilot rating was also declared obsolete in 1940.  The ratings for Pilot, Senior Pilot and Combat Observer were also established in 1940, but these were really just renamed ratings for Airplane Pilot, Military Airplane Pilot and Airplane Observer, along with reassigning the old Balloon Observer badge as the new Balloon Pilot badge.

 

July 1943 AAF regulations no longer included the rating for Balloon Observer.

[pfrost]

I was rushing and so some of my dates may be wrong, but the general idea is pretty clear, I think.

[Tesla]

Here is the second pattern without the sterling mark.

[Kilroy56]

Pattern IV 1945 dated...

[jeff41st]

Adding these "Pattern III Pelican Beak I" pilot wings to the thread for discussion. Did a fair amount of searching, but did not come across a posting for this variety. This variety is found both with and without the Meyer hallmark. On both versions the pin opens 180. The raised hallmark and sterling marks are crisp. On both examples there is a tiny raised blob of sterling immediately under the "N" This variation does not have the standard cammed pin found on Meyer wings. They are also lacking the frosted finish and the guides for placing the findings present on the backs of Meyer Pelican Beak pattern wings.

 

Although lacking some of the classic attributes found on what's known to be true Meyer wings they don't appear to be re-strikes to me.

 

What's the consensus on these wings? Maybe an early version of the Pelican Beak pattern? Or just a variation as a result of multiple manufacturers? Other ideas?

 

 

 

[5thwingmarty]

Since Jeff brought this to the top, I will add this pair of Meyer sweetheart wings here.  I have had the silver one for a couple of years but just picked up the gold one.  They are 1.5" in span.  The silver one actually has a frosted finish that looks like it was buffed off the high parts, and it is also stamped sterling near the pin hinge.

[Steve Brannan]

Here a wing my collection from a WW2 8Th AF pilot’s estate. Clutchback, just marked Sterling but no blob. 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

12 hours ago, Steve Brannan said:

Here a wing my collection from a WW2 8Th AF pilot’s estate. Clutchback, just marked Sterling but no blob. 

@Steve Brannan, that is a Norsid pattern pilot, not Meyer. 

[Steve Brannan]

Thanks. I didn’t realize this was a Norse design wing.