JACKPOT! Huge ID'd Archive to WWI Observer Owen G Williams

[MAW]

Chuck:

 

Glad to help out.

 

I gladly accept payment in the form of DSC photos!

 

"Bon chance!"

[Hinrik WD]

Dear all,

 

Great find! I recommend you buy some acid-free photo folders to store this in. I store all my photos and documents

in acid free folders and in a fire resistant cabinet.

 

Regards

 

Hinrik

[cthomas]

Dear all,

 

Great find! I recommend you buy some acid-free photo folders to store this in. I store all my photos and documents

in acid free folders and in a fire resistant cabinet.

 

Regards

 

Hinrik

 

 

Hinrik-

Greetings from frozen Northern Minnesota, USA! I saw you were from Iceland & thought you could appreciate it when I say the temps get down to -45c to -55c.

I appreciate your preservation advice. I think I will eventually store them in mylar pages & in a binder or two...or three...heck it makes me wonder just how many binders I will need to accommodate this grouping! It's either that or I go the rigid top loader sleeve route. I think that would be the more expensive route. I do want to make sure that I can see both sides of the images because he wrote a lot on back of many of these images. They act as a sort of supplement to his diary.

-Chuck

[cthomas]

Chuck:

 

Glad to help out.

 

I gladly accept payment in the form of DSC photos!

 

"Bon chance!"

 

 

Oh, I don't know....just might dig out that DSC image lot for say...a certain Tank Corps grouping

 

OK maybe I'll throw in something else to cover the spread...

[cthomas]

An unknown pilot posing next to a Nieuport engine? Is it a Nieuport or possibly a SPAD? What's that tubular device centered on top of the cowling & to the left of the machine gun?

 

Last question...can anyone ID this guy?

[njaviators]

An unknown pilot posing next to a Nieuport engine? Is it a Nieuport or possibly a SPAD? What's that tubular device centered on top of the cowling & to the left of the machine gun?

 

Last question...can anyone ID this guy?

 

 

Chuck -

 

Well, you aircraft ID skills are getting better, but this one is a Salmson 2A2. The engine is a radial - one of the few types to have a radial during the war was a Samlson.

 

Not sure what the tubular device on the centerline - top of fuselage is, but it sits behind a sort of "spike" you can easily make out on any Samlson photo. At first glance I thought maybe an optical sight, but it appears to be something engine related as it does not extend full back to the front cockpit and the back end (towards the cockpit) is tapered . The Canton-Unne 9Za was a water cooled radial - unlike modern radials - so this may have been related to that fact. The radiator was around the engine - it formed the "shell" over the engine and was fronted by the remainder of the cowling with the shutters, etc. that allowed cooling in flight.

 

Let me check a few references and see if I can figure it out. In the meanwhile, hopefully, someone will pop up with an answer !

 

Sorry, not joy on the pilot ID.

 

-Mike

[Hinrik WD]

Chuck,

 

I use Lighthouse products. I found an online USA shop for you:

 

http://www.ihobb.com/lighthouse.html

 

All the best

[cthomas]

Chuck,

 

I use Lighthouse products. I found an online USA shop for you:

 

http://www.ihobb.com/lighthouse.html

 

All the best

 

Thank you for this link. I will definitely look into it further.

 

Guys,

Here's a really neat image that should appeal to the WWI buff, The USMC collector & the closet Imperial junkie...

 

This supposedly shows German assault troops retreating from Belleau Wood. I've noticed this image described two different ways (there are two copies in the collection). One has my initial description on back & the other image has a description which says these are assault troops on the attack.

Note amongst other things the MG team and the German Flamethrower.

[Paul W.]

Charles:

 

I am a new member and have a couple of comments about your photo collection. Wonderful and Fantastic!!

 

It seems you and I are working on similar projects, but you have an incredible selection of prints to work with, while I have just a few. I stumbled across your first post when doing research for one of the aero squadrons mentioned in one of the photos I have.

 

It sounds like Mr. Williams was in the same line of work in the A.E.F. as my grandfather. Perhaps Mr. Williams was based out of Neuf Chateau Army H.Q. Photo Lab. My grandfather was in the 8th Photographic Section at Tours. According to my uncle, grandfather sent home a "dress box full" of photos, but few have survived. Several of the photos show their mobile photo labs, and documents written by Capt. Edward Steicher (in Gorrell's History of the AEF, 1917 to 1919) regarding the working conditions, mobile lab requirements, staffing requirements, lack of construction supplies and other items make for very informative reading. There are quite a few details in there regarding other Photographic Section histories. There are histories available for the 1st thru 26th photographic sections and the 101st thru 125th (I think). If you have a reference to which section he was in, you could to a bit more research for your book. In one page, someone details the photo section crew scrounging for building materials and details a "midnight requisition".

 

I stumbled across Gorrell's History of the A.E.F., which is an incredible resource with a lot of documentation. There is an on line site where these documents can be researched for no charge and there is also the same information (I believe) available in a 4 CD set from another site. I have ordered the CD set, but it has not yet arrived, so, I cannot say for sure if it the same.

 

Like you, I have scanned what photos I have access to and have put them in a book using an on line publisher. As a new member, I am uncertain if I am permitted to put specific company information or web addresses in a post, and I do not want to get off on the wrong foot with the administrators and moderators.

 

If this is something you might be interested in, and if it is something a new member would be permitted to post, let me know. If nothing else, I could forward you what site information I have by PM.

 

Paul W.

[cthomas]

I am a new member and have a couple of comments about your photo collection......

 

Paul-

First of all, welcome to the forum!

 

I'm glad to meet you. Please feel free to PM me anytime. I'd love to exchange notes on the publishing front. Actually, I have no notes to speak of just yet...I'm all ears & would love to hear of your experiences so that I may remember them for down the road.

What I plan on doing is first cataloging the images such as breaking them down by locations-Tours, Argonne, St. Mihiel, Toul, Verdun & dozens of other places; and other content such as Aerial shots, Allied/German Machines, Personal photos (from his time in Cornell University studying aerial photography to boarding the ship to go 'Over There'), Battlefield photos, Captured equipment & weapons, The Dead & Cemetery shots, Wrecked Machines etc...

I do need to get my hands on a copy of the Gorrell Histories. If you have that website handy, please send it my way. In what reading I've done so far, it seems to be an indispensable resource. I'd like to research the Photo Sections in-depth so that I may establish a strong foundation on which to launch into my studies of that little known component of the AEF.

 

Your relative may be mentioned in his diary. I don't know for sure but I'll keep you in mind if it does. In regards to the midnight 'requisitions', Williams also makes mention of such a feat in his diary. Something about needing materials to build a stove to heat their living space...

 

Williams also made notes on back of most of the photos in this grouping. A conservative estimate would be about 2,000-2,000+ individual images. In some cases, there are a handful of copies of the same image & even these copies, no matter how many there are, have notes on the back of them too. This guy is a Godsend for the history buff. Every time I think about the information contained in this grouping, I get excited & usually start babbling about one thing or the other. Just ask NJaviators, Croix de Guerre & other members I've talked to about this lot.

 

-Chuck

[Cobrahistorian]

Chuck,

 

Haven't forgotten you! We'll be headed back home tomorrow, so I'll try to give a call when we're on the road. If not, I'll be back in the office on Tuesday!

 

Jon

[cthomas]

The bombing of Montmedy by the 96th Aero Squadron. I've also included a scan of the reverse & the typical period description done by Williams on a slip of cardboard. Can anyone make sense of those numbers written on back?

[Paul W.]

The bombing of Montmedy by the 96th Aero Squadron. I've also included a scan of the reverse & the typical period description done by Williams on a slip of cardboard. Can anyone make sense of those numbers written on back?

Chuck:

I have no idea about the first set of numbers that look like grid coordinates.

The 3600 m (meters) refers to the altitude and the 26 cm refers to the lense on the camera used. The three standard sizes of lense they had were 26 cm, 50 cm and 120 cm. Any idea about what is written after the date? I cannot tell if it is 1 s l f or 1 s H?

 

Regards,

Paul

[cthomas]

Chuck:

I have no idea about the first set of numbers that look like grid coordinates.

The 3600 m (meters) refers to the altitude and the 26 cm refers to the lense on the camera used. The three standard sizes of lense they had were 26 cm, 50 cm and 120 cm. Any idea about what is written after the date? I cannot tell if it is 1 s l f or 1 s H?

 

Regards,

Paul

 

 

Thank you Paul. The only other suggestion I have is that the numbers represent some sort of filing system.

 

As for what's written after the date, my guess is 1SH. What do you guys think?

 

Here's a link to this image I found on the web:

 

Bombing of Montmedy

 

Was Steichen the one who took the image? Does he show up on the 96th's roster?

 

-Chuck

[Paul W.]

Thank you Paul. The only other suggestion I have is that the numbers represent some sort of filing system.

 

As for what's written after the date, my guess is 1SH. What do you guys think?

 

Here's a link to this image I found on the web:

 

Bombing of Montmedy

 

Was Steichen the one who took the image? Does he show up on the 96th's roster?

 

-Chuck

 

Chuck: Edward J. Steichen was a Major (towards the end of the war) and was Chief, Photographic Section. See:

 

www (dot) footnote (dot) com (backslash) image (backslash) 19645854 (backslash) #19645871

 

It is doubtful Steichen himself took the photo. More than likely the one depicted on the page you referenced is either the same as the one in the Williams collection or one taken a couple seconds later (or possibly was taken from another aeroplane during that attack). As Chief, Photographic Section, it would not be surprising if Steichen brought home an even more impressive collection than what Mr. Williams did. Per the information in Gorrell's History, Edward Steichen had more than 20 years experience in photography (see the above page), spoke fluent French and was able to interact with not only the French Military folks but the people who operated the French manufacturing firms from which the American Forces got the optics for their cameras, optics which were considered the best available in 1918 for military purposes. Several of the photos in Gorrell's History at the above site (on pages 64 thru 68) are in my grandfather's collection.

 

Somewhere in all the data in the Gorrell's History, I saw photos of the various "Official" forms used by the guys in the Photographic Sections and just glanced at them. There may be something in there somewhere that relates to the numbers at the top. I will keep a lookout for anything that resembles that style of numbering. Maybe one of those forms will help make sense out of that unknown shorthand.

 

As to the 1 SH, maybe that means one (photographic) shot? Watch for similar shorthand on the back of the other photos and maybe a pattern will show up.

 

Hope that is of help.

 

Regards,

 

Paul W.

[cthomas]

Paul-

It helps immensely. Thanks!

 

I'll look more into Steichen's record as I pound out the notes for future book material.

 

You mentioned the Gorrell histories on footnote....speaking of that site, I was able to pull up this image which shows 3rd photo section at play. Williams identifies himself as being the guy peaking from underneath the water pump handle. There's more information on this image which Williams notates on back. I just need to dig it out...I'm sure it probably has a date & location which may or may not be listed on the prev/next page on the footnote website.

For anyone who has not checked it out, I highly recommend taking the footnotes link from this thread & checking it out for yourself. There are free WWI histories for download (searchable too!), including the extensive Gorrell's series. Lots of Aero squadrons covered too...

 

I'd also like to draw your attention to the motorcycle & sidecar parked right behind the table. Everyone might be ID'd in the Williams version of this image, including the doughboys on the bike. I might even have another pic or two taken that day. I'm almost certain I can dig up something about this day in his diary.

 

One last update to my reply....I'll surely keep an eye out for something that might explain the "1 SH" notation. Between that & the other numbers, I'm sure it would help out an awful lot of other people if we were to solve this little riddle. Maybe something will turn up in his notebooks??? Now there's an idea...

[cthomas]

Here's a real strange one that was buried in a pile of larger images. Very brief, period description on back which reads "French Officers St. Mihiel". First from left is wearing the number '268' on his kepi as well as his collar tabs. You might think Infantry or maybe artillery, but what of the Observer badge? He's also wearing a Croix de Guerre ribbon bar above the left breast pocket.

Next guy was obviously a pilot of some distinction, wearing a Croix de Guerre with at least three palm leaves (and maybe another...). He is also wearing a small horizontal hash mark just above the bottom edge to his right cuff. It looks dark in color.

The guy next to him has no other insignia other than the 3 large chevrons on each sleeve. Ranking, I'm sure.

The next Frenchman is wearing an Observer badge with no other insignia other than the collar tabs.

The last guy is wearing what appears to be aviation insignia on his collar, followed by two chevrons on his sleeve. Note also the belt hook at waist level, between the two uniform pockets.

 

Your comments would be very welcomed! I would like to use this one for the proposed book.

[cthomas]

An airship over No Man's Land. Most likely St. Mihiel. Does anyone have a list of dirigibles assigned to patrol that area?

[cthomas]

A piss-poor scan of one of the 100's of celluliod negatives in this grouping.

 

It shows some Black doughboys digging a trench grave & gently lowering a line of pine boxes into the now consecrated ground. It's hard to see in this scan but at least one of the coffins has a large cross on the lid. It is also hard to see the black dougboy peeking up from his work along the bottom edge of the image (below btm right corner).

 

This negative is one reason why I need to invest in a nice scanner.

 

-Chuck

 

PS Yes, I've changed my avatar. It's a studio portrait of one of Owen's friends from the 3rd photo section. Last name of Rhine.

[cthomas]

Another celluliod scan. This one came out a little better than the previous one. It shows a 3rd Photo Section photog posing with an armed French sentry. 'Photog' was a term used by Williams in his diary. How common was this? I don't know...

[binthere]

Hey Tom...

RE: your post showing the image of the DH4 named "KATHELEEN" ... I mentioned this machine crashed & the pilot was killed. Well, I don't know for sure if the pilot was killed but his passenger, an Infantry Captain from the 1st Div (I've got his name-just need to pull it up again) was getting his first 'flip' in this plane when it crashed. Williams mentions the Inf Captain survived with some scrapes & bruises but he does not tell of the fate of the pilot. I'm sure I'll be able to determine that soon.

Also of note is the image you posted is the same machine as seen in the one of Williams posing with his camera. Hard to see in my post, but on the original it's very clear.

I've also seen a different angle of KATHELEEN shown in the Bender book on the history of the American Air Service. Seems like a real popular gal...

 

-Chuck

 

My grandfather was the crew chief for the #14 Machine, 278th Obs Sqdn, and was a witness to the crash of the "KATHLEEN". Here's his description of the incident. It's a bit gory for the weak of stomach . . .

 

One day a pilot flying a pursuit place came in to visit a friend at out field. The friend was flying one of our D H’s and asked if the pursuit pilot wanted to take it up and try out a bigger ship. The pursuit pilot had been up in Alaska with the malamute dogs, going out on sleds to deliver the mail and so on – that was his occupation before he became a pilot. The boys got out the ship and warmed it up, and the visitor invited another lieutenant to go along for a ride. It was just like climbing into an automobile nowadays – we were in and out of planes so much that we didn’t hesitate to climb into one anytime. They went down to the end of the strip, turned around, put the throttle wide open and started coming. The engine began to cut out, but instead of pulling the throttle back and stopping, he was one of these brave guys. He pulled the choke out and the plane threw black smoke, then opened it up again, and the plane started hitting on all twelve cylinders. He just cleared the top of one hanger when it started to die again, he choked it and got it over the next hanger, and the third one. Then instead of setting it down in an open field right in front of him, he banked the D H like a pursuit plane to head back to the landing strip, but you couldn’t do that with a D H because they were too heavy. We were all standing watching and holding our breaths, when the plane stood still for an instant, quivered, the tail went up in the air an the nose dropped like a plumb bob, and went into the ground head on. We ran to the crash and another fellow and I jumped up on the fuselage. The man in the back had the whole side of his face ripped open so that his molars were exposed – blood all over everything, and we pulled him out and the boys put him in an ambulance. The pilot was just sitting there. He was a white man when he took off, but now he was purple in the hands and face. For a moment I was startled. I thought, “This isn’t the same man I saw leaving in this plane a few minutes ago!” We tried to lift him out of the cockpit but we couldn’t budge him. We found the joystick had had hit him in the pit of the stomach and gone right up inside him. The rubber handle must have been right up in his neck. We had to send for a hacksaw and cut the stick off at the base to get his body out of there.

 

Hope this is helpful. This was recorded about 40 years after the fact, so some details may be a bit off. Still, my grandfather was mechanic since about 1906 (on autos and planes), and I'd bet money on any description he gave about mechancal details - such as the choking & stalling problem - being absolutely correct. He has similarly detailed descriptions of the squadron's other aircraft accidents.

 

In another entry, he mentions a Fokker being forced down at his aerodrome by another squadron's planes. I wouldn't say it's the one in your photo, but it may be. Also, when the 278th was stationed at Sinzing aerodrome during its occupation duties, they had custody of a number of German machines, and apparently the Sqdn commander was tasked to fly and submit reports on them. This could also account for some of the original photos of German aircraft.

 

Great collection you have. At some future date, if you're agreeable, would like to compare my grandfather's written accounts to William's diary. I'm pulling together gramp's WWI memoires for the family, and corroborative sources would be welcome.

 

Thanks again for letting us see a great collection.

[cthomas]

I'm glad to see this topic in discussion again.

 

I was mistaken in my earlier comments about the fate of Katheleen & it's connection to Williams. Owen Williams did fly in this machine (I have plenty of pics of him posing in it) but it wasn't the one that was involved in the crash I mentioned. That one was an 85th A.S. aeroplane dubbed "Bernice" (tail #31361, fleet #7). Bernice wrecked near Sinzig, Germany on May 9th, 1919. Lt Fox was pilot & a Captain of Infantry was up for his first 'flip' when it crashed into a couple of trees. I'm not positive it was near Sinzig but I'm fairly certain that was the location. Both the Captain & Lt. Fox survived the crash with Fox receiving some scratches to his head from the tree limbs.

 

Now, "KATHELEEN" of the 278th A.S. (tail #33054, fleet #11) did crash two months earlier on March 12, 1919 with Lt. Bissel as pilot & Lt. Snow flying as Observer. I do not know the fate of those two.

 

 

'Binthere'- You mentioned your Grandfather worked on #14. Do you have any data for this machine (ie name & tail #)? I would love to add it to my notes.

When you have the time, I'd be very interested in comparing notes on the 278th AS.

 

-Chuck

[cthomas]

'binthere'-

 

Great news! I believe I identified the two individuals involved in that wreck your grandfather mentioned.

 

The accident happened April 7th, 1919 near Toul, France at about 1410hrs. The aeroplane involved was DH4 #1 (tail #32126) of the 354th AS. The pilot was 2nd Lt. Frederick S. Hartman & the injured Observer was Phil F. Helmer of the 354th A.S. I do not have any more info on which squadron Hartman belonged to. He's not mentioned in the "Wings of Honor" index but maybe in the appendices...

 

Helmer was identified on pg 368 of WOH as being assigned to the 354th A.S. from 10-20-18 to Armistice. As graphic as his injuries sound, I believe he may have survived the crash.

 

-Chuck

[binthere]

QUOTE(cthomas @ Jan 13 2009, 03:04 PM)

Here's one little gem....

An exotic camo job on a Liberty(?) machine. The insignia seen just above my water mark belongs to the 85th Aero Squadron. The 85th's insignia consisted of a Cupid wearing a campaign cap & sitting on top of the world.

 

Has anyone seen such a bizarre paint scheme?

 

Hey Chuck,

 

I think your plane is a De Havilland DH-4 and I think Baker is right,,this wacky paint scheme became quite a fad after the Armistice was signed. The Army of Occupation held a big circus in Coblenz, Germany in 1919 and a lot of the old Spads from the 94th were there painted in all kinds of crazy ways.

 

From the Aerodrome Forum -

"Designed by Geoffrey de Havilland in 1916, the D.H.4 was the only British design manufactured by the Americans. It was easily identified by its rectangular fuselage and deep frontal radiator. Versatile, heavily armed and equipped with a powerful twelve cylinder engine, this biplane daylight bomber was fast. Sometimes called the "Flaming Coffin," its huge fuel tank was dangerously positioned between the pilot and observer, hindering communication. Produced in vast numbers, many D.H.4s were modified for civilian air service after the war."

 

I don't think this was addressed (I may have missed it in the 7 pages of great discussion) and I hope I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence, but . . .

 

The US built version of the D.H.4 was often called a Liberty aeroplane or machine. 'Liberty' in this case refered to the Liberty engine that the US-built D.H.4s mounted. The UK machines were primarily equipped with Eagle engines, though 3 or 4 others were also used. So . . . the informal name of Liberty machine was used to differentiate it from the other D.H.4 variants.

[binthere]

'binthere'-

 

Great news! I believe I identified the two individuals involved in that wreck your grandfather mentioned.

 

The accident happened April 7th, 1919 near Toul, France at about 1410hrs. The aeroplane involved was DH4 #1 (tail #32126) of the 354th AS. The pilot was 2nd Lt. Frederick S. Hartman & the injured Observer was Phil F. Helmer of the 354th A.S. I do not have any more info on which squadron Hartman belonged to. He's not mentioned in the "Wings of Honor" index but maybe in the appendices...

 

Helmer was identified on pg 368 of WOH as being assigned to the 354th A.S. from 10-20-18 to Armistice. As graphic as his injuries sound, I believe he may have survived the crash.

 

-Chuck

 

Really appreciate your time and research . . . but this may not be the accident he recorded. He was clear that it was one of his squadron's aircraft - not one from another squadron. And, the accident took place at either the aerodrome in Columbey-les-Belles or the Autreville Aerodrome (neither of which which is all that far from Toul) but it took place before the Armistice.

 

Thanks, though.