M1 front seam fixed bail vs front seam swivel bail

[akriener]

Digging into M1 research it seems there is a lot of opinion on rear seam swivel bail helmets seeing action due to their late production date. In Chris Armold's Steel Pots on page 90, he has a footnote that states "There is considerable controversy among M1 helmet collectors about the position of the seam where the helmet rim joins. Although unable to locate any data from the period, I am convinced that the seam migrated from the front of the helmet to the rear in 1944 when the helmet rim material was changed.".

That aside, I'm curious as to what the community consensus is on front seam swivel bales in regards to collectability. Obviously this would be influenced by personal preference. On page 94 he notes that fixed bales were used from 1941-1943 with swivel being used approximately starting October 1943. Based on those dates and his estimated migration of the seam from the front to the rear, it is a reasonable assumption that front seam swivel bales potentially saw as much action as front seam fixed bail helmets.

Many collectors I have talked to suggest that an untouched front seam fixed bail is the most desirable. But it's my opinion that collecting front seam swivel bales doesn't make a collection any "less" as compared to others provided the helmet is also complete.

So I ask: Regarding front seam helmets only, which type of bail is your preference and why?

[B24AT6]

If you were to place two reasonably identical (markings, condition, IDed, etc) helmets on a table, but one was a swivel loop and the other a fixed loop, I would pick the fixed loop. They’re earlier helmets, were the most most commonly used, and if I have to make a choice I prefer them. However I have no issue with a helmet being a swivel loop, and unless the helmet is just a generic unmarked, no ID lid I give very little consideration to whether it is a fixed or swivel loop.

[iron bender]

I have one swivel loop helmet in my collection. It has all features of the fixed loop helmet, but obviously with stainless swivel loops. I only have this helmet in my collection as it looks like a true war vet, very well used, possibly from postwar service, I don't know. I personally prefer the earlier helmets with early to midwar type liner, (Hawley, SC, HR, General Fiber, etc). Simply a preference. My opinion on why so many of the earlier model helmets are seen during the big operations in northern Europe, Italy, Southern France, in mid to late 44, is due to the units that participated in these operations. For the most part, they'd been in theater for a year plus. Obviously state side replacements brought new, up to date gear with them. Lots of the NG units that participated in the later campaigns probably had lots of the newer type helmet. Same (in my opinion) would hold true for the Pacific campaign.

[akriener]

Interesting perspectives. Thanks for sharing.

[Bugme]

Akriener, you use the word: bail and bale in your opening post so for clarity, let me first state that, "a bail is on a pail and a bale is made of hay but, M-1 helmets have chinstrap loops." The word "loop" was the designation used in the original plans for the M-1.

As for Chris Armolds book, it was groundbreaking for collectors when it was first published. However, it is extremely outdated and many thoughts have changed in recent years as a result of production period documentation surfacing which debunks some earlier ideas brought forth by Armold. A good book to have but, not the only book to hang your hat on these days.

Debate over swivel loops and fixed loops has been going on for several decades. The largest debate being whether swivel loops were used on D-Day or not. I personally think they were and limited photographic evidence seems to verify this but, the debate persists.

As to collectibility, the fixed loops and more so the M-2 D-loop will always be king over the swivel loop simply because these hit the beaches first in North Africa during Operation Torch and were among the majority in the MTO. It wasn't till June of '44 that the swivel loop had its first trial by fire. 

[akriener]

33 minutes ago, Bugme said:

Akriener, you use the word: bail and bail in your opening post so for clarity, let me first state that, "a bail is on a pail and a bail is made of hay but, M-1 helmets have chinstrap loops." The word "loop" was the designation used in the original plans for the M-1.

As for Chris Armolds book, it was groundbreaking for collectors when it was first published. However, it is extremely outdated and many thoughts have changed in recent years as a result of production period documentation surfacing which debunks some earlier ideas brought forth by Armold. A good book to have but, not the only book to hang your hat on these days.

Debate over swivel loops and fixed loops has been going on for several decades. The largest debate being whether swivel loops were used on D-Day or not. I personally think they were and limited photographic evidence seems to verify this but, the debate persists.

As to collectibility, the fixed loops and more so the M-2 D-loop will always be king over the swivel loop simply because these hit the beaches first in North Africa during Operation Torch and were among the majority in the MTO. It wasn't till June of '44 that the swivel loop had its first trial by fire. 

Clearly I was not paying that close attention when typing! Thanks for adding some additional information regarding the photographs of swivels on D-Day. I'll take a look at M-2's as well. The market is just very dry right now for quality, complete M-1's under $400.

[Nickman983]

2 hours ago, B24AT6 said:

If you were to place two reasonably identical (markings, condition, IDed, etc) helmets on a table, but one was a swivel loop and the other a fixed loop, I would pick the fixed loop. They’re earlier helmets, were the most most commonly used, and if I have to make a choice I prefer them. However I have no issue with a helmet being a swivel loop, and unless the helmet is just a generic unmarked, no ID lid I give very little consideration to whether it is a fixed or swivel loop.

That's pretty much how I feel as well. I'd take a fixed bail helmet over a swivel bail if given the choice but I wouldn't turn away an interesting helmet just because it's a swivel bail. Two of my favorite helmets in my collection are swivel bails.

 

That being said, I'm not as focused on WWII as some others are. If the main focus of collecting is WWII then having a FB helmet over a SB helmet would be more important.