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Vietnam Advisor Purples Jacket


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I am not going to agree with the other member who stated that are are not multiple versions of this cammo, cause there is...... w00t.gif

Written contributor to French Militaria Magazine, UK World War II Re-enactors Magazine &The Karkee Web Research Team.

Remembering the service of:
9095 Pte Alfred Fredrick NEWLAND, 7th Field Ambulance, 2 Division, AIF. WIA 16/11/16 France.
436 Private Albert McCANN, B Company 8th Battalion AIF. Enlisted 26/8/14. Killed in Action 17/6/15 Gallipoli.
VX24056 Gunner George Edward McCANN, 2/3 Composite Anti Aircraft Regiment. Enlisted 7/6/40. Discharged 3/8/44. Served in Australia and New Guinea.



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There is no doubt that there are two different types of this material. It is odd that this was ever even questioned. Just looking at any vintage photos, you can always see the difference in the materials.

I had bought a grouping from a US Advisor to the ARVN Airbrone unit that was involved with the Presidential Guard, years ago. In it was his uniform that was all direct embroidered. Being that this has always been one of my favorite camos from Vietnam I quized him. He was there fairly late, I think it was 1969 or 1970, and he was still given one of these uniforms. His comment was while only the ARVN's attached to the Presidential Service could get them issued he as a American could go and get as many pieces as he wanted in the tailor shop that made them. He said the ARVN's were really proud of that uniform and would not let any other ARVN's wear any of it, or they would beat the hell out of them and take it.

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"A militaria show is a social event for anti-socials" - A.T. 2008


ASMIC Executive President

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If you look closely, I mentioned that my post.....was to the best of my knowledge!

I didn't say that I manufactured the pattern myself, did I?

Here is the lowdown, I don't think that in the middle of a war, the South Vietnamese

decided to place all emphasis on making several variations of one pattern, when all they

supposedly did, was change a few minor, minor color variations.

I mean, wake up....this is South Vietnam, I am sure the color varied...due to the manufacturer?

For example....Golden Tigerstripe.

Anyhow...it doesn't really matter.

I think that it all depends on the exact time it was made, perhaps an earlier material....and a later

material, color scheme, etc....who knows.

The fact of the matter, is that this is what the South Vietnamese called "Pinks" or "Bulletproof" pattern.

Now, do I personally own this pattern? No....why? Well, not only is this pattern rare, but I don't add just anything

to my personal items, unless they are the real deal...either having come from a vet, or a very...very trustable source.

I wouldn't dare buy this off ebay, or any auction.....

There was a fella in Ho Chi Minh City, years back....who was making this stuff, and believe me....it was damn

good.....almost too good.

Now that I have mentioned this, the question remains, as someone put in their post " Duffy, now you got it?"

Thats funny. Some of you guys here on this forum are right out to lunch.

I don't care about some book that someone's picture is on, I really don't.

Anyhow, I will leave everybody to their decisions and opinions on this pattern, after all it's a free country!

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For what it's worth, and I wish my original photo showed it, the jacket I posted is what I would term "purple

dominant."

 

That said, years ago when I found my jacket rummaging I wrote to Mike Martin. If memory serves me I think Gerard Devlin suggested I write him; Devlin, I think, had been an ARVN Ranger advisor and recognized the pattern. Martin had just written a book called Angels in Red Hats and quickly ID'd the jacket. The book shows(and I wish my scanner could capture the color ) a complete purples uniform that is "purple dominant." In addition to the purples, he shows 3 other patterns dissimilar to the purples. He says there were at least 5 distinct patterns worn by the ARVN Airborne Division, with the first two being "French and British patterns."

 

Martin had a Vietnamese friend who collected purples and he wrote me. With the letter was a photograph of those he had...I think it was 3 or 4 jackets. I'll try and find that photo and post it. Thinking back each of those jackets he had were of slightly different patterns...but the most noticible difference was the coloration. Some seemed lime green, some purple.

 

Too bad Martin is not on the forum. I think he and his friend could add alot here.

 

I recently saw a complete set for sale. Actually it had just been sold. It was a very nice uniform with jump indicator, name, ARVN jumpwings, etc.

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Duffy, just how long have you been collecting VN items? 5 years? 10yrs?

 

Dude, you got a pretty arrogant way of looking at things. Maybe you are one of those guys that just likes to come on sites like this just to stir things up, maybe that's what you are all about, what you get off on. You certainly haven't added anything constructive to any topic you have posted on, just "your opinion". You're certainly not winning any friends on here with the way you seem to talk down to guys that have WAY more collecting experience than you do or ever will, but hey, you don't care, you know more than everybody. Between myself and 2 other posters on this topic, there is at least 75 combined years of collecting, I know, you don't care, because you know more than everybody else. This site is for guys that have a common interest certain VN items, if you can't be constructive in your comments then stop posting. Like I said, maybe you get off on the drama, the internet is FULL of people that do and you seem to be one of them. Even with photo proof, which is the only thing you seem to believe in, you still can't except that you are wrong. It looks like "the best of your knowledge" isn't really knowledge at all, just an arrogant opinion. How do YOU know what was done in VN, were you there? You don't know anything!

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Spike,

 

First of all, get real.

Secondly, I am not here to make friends, but to contibute to this forum....but obviously not in your eyes.

Thats fine.

You collect for others or yourself? I collect for me. If you don't like what I have to say, or at least keep an open mind with my views....then how is this,

don't read my posts?

You throw the " if you don't have anything better to contribute to this forum with, then don't post".....whatever man.

A forum, incase you don't know...is for answers, thoughts, help, reference, and yes...opinions.

So, take it as you may there chief......I can't see that I am doing anything wrong.

You are quick to point your finger at me because I am critical obviously, at least it looks that way.

The funny thing is, as I type this you are most likely just waiting to see it add itself to the "new posts"....so it only appears you enjoy my thought on this subject.

I am not here to fight, I am very thrown off by your judgement.

One question for you though, why don't you point your finger at all the members who DON'T post? Or at the ones who only comment with "Nice Jacket"..."Awesome

Collection"...."Boots found today"...."WOW!".........let me know what you have to say about these useless posts / threads.

Does it matter how long I have collected for? Like I said, I collect for myself....so that information will stay with me.

And just for the record, it's been some time!

When I first joined up here on this forum, I thought it was a great, great place to interact.....now, it seems like a run-in with problems.

I think what has happened here was a misunderstanding, and a few times to say.

I should also mention here, that for yourself.....I don't go anyhwere to start trouble, so don't run your mouth saying thats what I'm about.

For your comment that I don't know anything, I'm not even going to start with that.....

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Duffy, I will direct this statement right to you. Your first post on this subject you went right on the attack of Kammo-Man, but instead of using his name, you say "some member". Eveyone knows who you were directing that at. If you are going to throw accusations at a member, at least be man enough to use their name in the attack.

 

I have read a lot of your posts on the different Vietnam subjects you have posted on. You argue everything and say you want to see photographic proof. Well, in this instance you and everyone else who reads this thread has been able to see a lot of photographic proof, with vintage photos and recreated photos from magazines. This is a instance where everyone benefits by seeing great "proof" of the different patterns. Instead of getting defensive, maybe something along the lines of " Thanks guys for the time in showing these photos and taking the time lto post these lengthy explanations", would have won a lot more points.

 

We all know about the windproof camo that was made in Vietnam, after it opened for tourism, just like we all know about the remakes coming out of Hong Kong, that are sold on Ebay. This is not new knowledge. If anyone has ever handled real pieces, they can spot the differences instantly.

 

Before you start attacking people on this forum about posting threads that you personally don't like, remember one thing, everyone started collecting at some point. Maybe they don't post the rarest piece of gear available, but I am sure when you first started collecting you were pretty excited to find a mess kit or a pair of boots. Don't attack someone else, because you think you are better then them with your posts. Maybe the person who posts the "oohs and ahhs" are genuinely excited to see these pieces and / or are excited for a friend that they found these items.This Forum is a great place to post information and to learn new things. If it is nothing but run-ins with problems for you, maybe you should look in the mirror and think that this is only a problem or a hassle for you. There are many great collectors on this forum, and even when there are misunderstandings most can remain adult about it and move on.

 

There are many posts on this forum that are done by people I consider good friends in the business. Do I agree with everything they post about? No. But when I don't agree I ask them politely what are they using as a basis for what they wrote. I learned a long time ago not to get defensive because I don't agree with someone or something. Then, if I still think they are wrong, I will post what I know. Many times it is just a different take on a subject. I see you posting in the For Sale section, and using CISO in your listings. This term CISO, I consider to just be a flash word in Vietnam collecting. It is just like all of Johnson's made up names about tiger stripe patterns. The main difference it that CISO truly existed. No one ever used the term CISO with Vietnam items until the last few years. Then it became this super secret operation Ben Baker was doing in Okinawa and making all this sterile equipment. The truth to it, is Baker did what he did as there was a demand for the items. Whether it was a knife,a uniform, weapons pouches, hats,whatever it was,he had the items made. It was not in some dark seceret chamber though, it was sent out to whatever private contractors could fill his orders. You mentioned a CISO tiger stripe boonie hat in one of your wanted posts. Honestly, there is no such thing. Maybe the teams coming through Okinawa needed boonies and asked Baker for some. Instead of locking himself up and having the Jame Bond character "Q" make them, he sent someone down to a local tailor shop and bought them off of the shelves. This can be said for just about anything uniform wise that is considered a CISO issue. Esp. the black pajamas, that you called CISO. For years and years these were just called Project Roadrunner black pajamas, that were made in Japan. While the exotic weapons that are attributed to Ciso, were not bought locally, most everything else was. If you look in the lengthy Tiger Stripe pinned thread, you will see a couple of shots of the Recreational Garments tagged tiger stripe flight suits. These have been referred to as CIA issue. What they really are is, someone heard there was going to be a order coming around for a isue of these tiger stripe suits. One very smart person living on Okinawa, got wind of this order, went to the tailor shop in Tokyo at the Daimaru dept store in the Ginza district, and bought as many sets as he could. As soon as he got them, he had tags made, had them sewn in, and then resold them to the agencies that requested them. Does this make them Ciso or CIA? Not in my mind, it just shows great GI smarts. I understand if you want to call what you are looking for CISO, but just like you get annoyed with new guys posting boots, some of the old time Vietnam collectors can think the same of collectors who use "buzz / cool" words in their descriptions.

 

These are just my thoughts, and I feel I have probably wasted too much of my personal time typing this, but every once in awhile a posting needs to be addressed.

www.vintageproductions.com


"A militaria show is a social event for anti-socials" - A.T. 2008


ASMIC Executive President

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Hey chief, let me address your points...

 

"First of all, get real."

I'm gonna be as real as I can be.

 

"Secondly, I am not here to make friends"

You are doing a great job accomplishing this but obviously, you really don't care.

 

"...at least keep an open mind with my views...."

Glass houses chief, glass houses.

 

"is for answers, thoughts, help, reference, and yes...opinions"

Your opinions have been fairly negative and you seem to have no tolerance for people questioning your opinions.

 

"Does it matter how long I have collected for? Like I said, I collect for myself....so that information will stay with me.

And just for the record, it's been some time!"

That answer is pretty vague which leads me to believe that you haven't been collecting as long as you lead us to believe, that's cool, just don't come on here acting like you know everything and have no use for other peoples opinions. The only thing worse than arrogance is ignorance.

 

As far as the other peoples comments like "Nice Jacket"..."Awesome Collection"...."Boots found today"...."WOW", lot of times these comments are made because the guy who made the comment is GENUINELY excited about that item, at least they are constructive. Bummer that it annoys you.

 

To be honest, you're pretty disrespectful in alot of your comments, refuse to believe things even when shown proof, the "CISO ammo pouch/M76" topic being one and this topic too. As much you "thought it was a great, great place to interact", you aren't doing a very good job of "interacting". Whatever, obviously, you have no repect for other peoples opinions or knowledge and as you can see, it kind of annoys guys here, who are are open, helpful, respectful and who contribute in a positive way. There alot of GREAT collectors, dealers and historians on this site, a few are great friends of mine, and all are more that willing to help and also are willing to learn someting new. When it comes to VN items, I NEVER have a closed mind to anything unless it's obviously fake. And I stand by my statement, you DON'T know anything, you only know what YOU want to know. Chill out, show a little respect , be open to others opinions and knowledge and maybe you'll learn a few things. It's up to YOU what you want to do.

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Vintage Productions,

 

Yes, you have wrote a very, very lengthy amount. I can clearly see your perception of this instance.

Regarding myself typing "other member"....sure thing, I can see where you are coming from, I do....

but one question back to you on that, I hope you will mention the same to Mr. X, who has typed the same,

which is obviously directed at me.

 

For photographic evidence, yes...this is what I prefer to go by, I didn't dodge away from the photo's

that were posted of the pinks, I disagreed....as I have the right to.

Just like a denison smock compared to a windproof smock, most will agree that the pattern is similar,

but not the exact same as one another.

This is how I thought of the "pinks".....or "purple pattern" as it has been called throughout this post.

I just believe that it was the same pattern, but with differences due to the material, minus a few

small differences in the pattern, possibly due to manufacturer.

One is smooth, one is not.

One is sheer, one is not.

Etc. Etc.

 

I never meant to "attack" anyone on here with knowledge or opinionated answers.

This was not my intention, nor will it be.

And yes, I did start off collecting, by becoming shits and giggles over a badge, or over a belt....heck,

maybe even a empty .45 casing! I'm sure all seasoned collectors did this at one time, when they started.

I still get pumped and excited when I obtain certain pieces, which I may think are out of this world.

I stated what I stated, as an example.

Directed at Spike, I was pretty much applying "Don't judge me, as you don't seem to judge others...who

obviously post useless things, etc."

I have kept such to myself, but when someone throws such a comment like "If you don't have anything

to post besides opinionated answers....then don't bother posting".....well, I'm afraid to say that a point has to be proven, in return"......via, which is what I did, by saying what I said, by listing the example I had.

I enjoy speaking to most collectors.....not just ones with years upon years of experience.

It's a great feeling to help someone out that may be new to the hobby.....

 

For me, and looking in the mirror.....I can't say I'd have any problem.

I know what I have said, I know what I have felt, and I know what is out of line to say.

I guess I am taken the wrong way at times, I do realize that only reading words....that things

can be taken the wrong way, where as when you are in person and talking, one can see what type

of tone is being used.....maybe this is something that should be considered in this instance?

 

On your brief note about misunderstandings, and how most people on here can remain acting like

adults and just move on when they may not agree on something......o.k, then how is this?

 

* The "Have more experience than you ever will" comment, made by Spike.

 

* The "You don't know anything" comment, made by Spike.

 

And this.....you call this adult conversation? It sounds to me like when I was in grade 12 in high school,

nitter - nattering at each other......similar to "nobody likes you"....I mean come on, the least you could do

is re-direct such to him....or does his part not count, as he may be a "Friend of the Business"?

Call me an arrogant person if you may, but I see it as "equality".

 

For the CISO title, not only is it my militaria that I am selling, but it is a name referred to such garments,

by most collectors....except in this case by a few "old time" collectors.

Is there anything out there that says it is not CISO, perhaps a written source of documentation?

Is this the reason why Spike asked me if I could prove such garments were CISO and not just some

ordinary black pajamas? Sounds to me like I am the adult, as I keep to my own....it only looks like you

are his muse in this case, with secret messages.

Am I not right? Or was it just good timing, from the moment I replied to his question, to the time you added to the post here, where you have included the comment on the CISO name certainty?

Call me crazy, but I put two and two together here.

 

I won't go any further on the topic of CISO, as I don't want to seem "arrogant" with my opinion

and or answers.

 

Anyhow, tomorrow is a new day....perhaps it's a fresh start for all of us.

Cheers,

Duffy

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"For the CISO title, not only is it my militaria that I am selling, but it is a name referred to such garments,

by most collectors...."

No, usually by new collectors, like VP said, it's a catchy little word that is usually used to add a little more flash to something being sold. I asked you about your supposed CISO black PJ's because, like you are so apt to do, I don't believe you and I don't think that you can prove that they are, in fact, CISO made PJ's. If they are, first, they would have sold already and second, they would be worth alot more than what you have them at. Whatever, again, you don't care. You are probably a cool aid drinking follower of the Rev. Richard Johnson and his tiger stripe "bible" as well.

As childish as you think us "old timers" are, there was alot of great info shared here, posted by "old timers" which, as is your choice, you seem to chose to ignore. Keep being "the adult, as I keep to my own", it's working for ya so far. And you are right, in a face to face conversation, things would be taken alot differently so maybe it's your delivery of what you are trying to say and how you're saying it that is the problem, everybody else that has posted on this topic seems to be able to contribute useful info to a cool topic. Maybe in person you are a cool guy but on this site, you don't come off that way and you are still clinging on to the disrespectfulness in your retorts. You obviously don't really want to be a positive part of this site, if that's what you are about, knock yourself out.

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Duffy-Here we go again. Granted there may not be a written source to say they are not CISO, but there is also not a written source that says they are CISO. But, you are right it is your merchandise and you can give it any title you want. All I know is, if I was selling it to someone, I better be darn well ready to prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that it can be guaranteed CISO.

 

As to your accusing myself and Spike to be attacking you at the same time or "Sounds to me like I am the adult, as I keep to my own....it only looks like you

are his muse in this case, with secret messages". That, I take as a very personal attack and I really hope you can prove such an accusation. While yes, Spike and I have known each other for a very long time, that does not mean I will take his side on something I do not agree with or that I would be his "muse", to make you look bad. Get real. If you must know, I also called him and said to calm down a bit, as this could get out of hand very easily. Now, I almost regret that I did. You do come across very arrogant, and if you are questioned you just strike out at anyone. This is the second thread I have seen where you were questioned and you blew up, and then made some comment like tomorrow will be better.

I also don't need to write MR X and tell him he is doing the same thing you are. I am sure he typed that so everyone involved could see what a ridiculous statement was made in the first place.I think it is you that has a problem with this thread. Almost everyone invloved with posting on this subject, has added some very precise info and great photogrpahy. These are guys who have spent a lot of time studying these types of items, and having proven time and time again on this forum their true love of this subjet. But you just wave your hand and say you don't agree with them. Well, to quote you, "show some photographic proof". Here is your chance to show all of us that we are wrong about this. Show everyone some proof for your statements. I especially love that you admit you don't own or have owned any of this rare pattern. I can say without a shadow of a doubt, some of the biggest collections in the world of these uniforms are members of this forum. Please, do this. If you can prove this, I will be the first one to post here, that I was wrong, and can admit to my mistakes in my post. I look forward to your written and photographic proof, that there is only one pattern of this rare camo uniform.

www.vintageproductions.com


"A militaria show is a social event for anti-socials" - A.T. 2008


ASMIC Executive President

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Spike and VP,

 

I just finished typing a huge reply, but decided to delete it.

From my standpoint, I am choosing to leave things as they are, I have no more time for this.

This could carry on for many, many posts...and frankly, my patience and willingness to type even more

is running out.

Take it whatever way you wish, but I am not contributing more to this topic.

I believe it would and could take forever to solve, so I am not putting anymore into it.

If I was to reply to all the things said, in both of your posts....it would take a million years!

Cheers.

Duffy

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Hi all,

 

regarding the above posted windproof uniform, a fellow member here has a very,very close garment to it which has direct US veteran provenance. It is a remarkable item to say the very least...

 

Filupe, thanks for the continued posts and scans, it's appreciated.

 

 

Patrick.

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Hi all

Well it seems like this Mr Duffy chap likes to rub everyone the wrong way .

This fourm is about knowledge , learning and teaching .

I went out of my way for Horsa to answer his question the best way I know how and was basically told I was wrong by Duffy .

Now that is fine in itself , only I have had 20 years worth of experience handling windproof camouflage and have been pondering the pattern and all its little hidden pieces , learning where it came from , its growing pains and its final form and cuts .

 

That being said if Mr Duffy wants a history lesson on British camouflage development that is connected with French , Vietnamese and Amercian he is free to PM me and I will set him straight on it .

 

He has made enough waves here and rubbed some members the wrong way for sure .

He is as arrogant as a teenager sitting behind the wheel of an Austin Martin DB5 which I am sure would suit him fine , but there comes a time when, if you want to learn , you must either read or learn from those who have asked the same questions and found the correct answers many many years before .

 

If you dont want to learn ...........

Well ignorance is bliss .

 

I am on this fourm to help people , and to learn from anyone who is willing to teach .

Plain and simple .

 

Oh yes I almost forgot .....for enjoyment

 

 

owen

 

kammoman

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Bob,

 

Is there any chance to have the pics of the uniform you mentionned from the Pres Guard ? 3 years ago, you sold one in your website, I was interested but Daniel was not able to tell me the price at that time because you were away for gunshows.

 

 

 

 

There is no doubt that there are two different types of this material. It is odd that this was ever even questioned. Just looking at any vintage photos, you can always see the difference in the materials.

I had bought a grouping from a US Advisor to the ARVN Airbrone unit that was involved with the Presidential Guard, years ago. In it was his uniform that was all direct embroidered. Being that this has always been one of my favorite camos from Vietnam I quized him. He was there fairly late, I think it was 1969 or 1970, and he was still given one of these uniforms. His comment was while only the ARVN's attached to the Presidential Service could get them issued he as a American could go and get as many pieces as he wanted in the tailor shop that made them. He said the ARVN's were really proud of that uniform and would not let any other ARVN's wear any of it, or they would beat the hell out of them and take it.

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Hi all

Here are the trousers printed in the 1st pattern Windproof pattern .

I dont think these trousers have ever been washed so you are looking at mint condition .

You can see how complex this pattern is and how close it is to a mint set of the British windproof trousers .

Note this is a Viet cut , the British trousers were cut like over pants .

owen

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