Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
NKina91

1st and 3rd ID helmets for review

Recommended Posts

Hey guys, Here are the two newest arrivals to the collection. The 1st ID is a fixed bail and is missing most of the rim. The 3rd ID is a front seam swivel bail and had a ton of bright red surface rust on it. I was able to carefully remove most of it and chose not to touch the 3rd ID panels at all. The bright red rust has left its mark on the panels as seen in the photos. I took some microscope pics of them so you can see them in detail and give opinions. The helmets both sat in a garage for some time and the 3rd was definitely exposed to water unfortunately. In hand it looks original, but I figured I would get others opinions as well. 

Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

Nick

94701722_639657426616590_6897953906735710208_n.jpg.d164aeb63df5ff2fda3173dac6b00555.jpg

94883728_868456496954220_3145272398459174912_n.jpg.abc35eb356179944bd76a037dd97e985.jpg

95690151_160414135399660_1651693183358205952_n.jpg.6bf3960c0906b78b1380c5e6cc73fcb4.jpg

95143487_237474597338512_8246255857344446464_n.jpg.1e7ec5d307dbcf0aa4a288442c5cbbea.jpg

95814350_235579974434628_8603969054769676288_n.jpg.499df1338d9864d59158bfd15a3169eb.jpg

95436039_3545905912091215_6892172708956602368_n.jpg.2e58c23b6e04965bbb54e5f69cebe249.jpg

94990647_236212577717116_4671298064256860160_n.jpg.dfacdb232a5b957f4a88bbf9392a6142.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not sure on the 3rd as usually rust under paint is not a good sign - 


donation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gifdonation2017.gif

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They both look good to me.

But wait for someone more experienced to chime in.


donation2013.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, mdk0911 said:

not sure on the 3rd as usually rust under paint is not a good sign - 

The rust does not appear to be under the painted panels but only  under flaked spots. It definitely had other helmets stacked on top of it and took the paint down to bare metal allowing the rust to start. I thought i had posted the pics of the magnification. Better late than never!

95219604_300137607640463_3862772970455826432_n.jpg.3bbffc12480a7a6d45959481c999f40c.jpg

95756712_924984911289112_4202719524560044032_n.jpg.ea46535d51c90bfa1f6c4259f70d1775.jpg

96125303_604487880160529_3446309920410959872_n.jpg.64bf929729e60a0480107c14fbbbad05.jpg

 

95327531_628026381386910_4820237814866116608_n.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can see the cork texture under the painted panels. The rusted spots dont have paint in them. 

S20200501_0002.jpg.480a28b26c60ce089f48b25dc3d76d8c.jpgS20200501_0001.jpg.f9fa7ceeb3621d8c6b6f1194bbbf91ae.jpg

S20200501_0005.jpg.fac815040249d641518a766f883e4868.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

photos are terrible, but for what we can see I would tell artificially aged, better photos could tell more about painting.

Regarding 1st ID looks a fake, look the black edge go over the exposed rust on steel, how it could be possible IF the paint was there before the rust came out?

 

GS


Always looking for BLUE DRESS ARMY UNIFORMS (1936-1950)

donation2017.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey all,

I knew that 3rd ID looked familiar, it was originally sold by estateman on eBay, looks like someone coated it with varnish:

Original thread:

 

1.JPG

2.JPG

3.JPG


donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That’s definitely the same helmet as the one i purchased. So this one is an easy green fake? I’m not out much on either of them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn’t like any of them when I saw them, and no chinstraps on a painted lid is always a huge red flag.

 

glad you didn’t get badly burned price wise 


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, ArchangelDM said:

Didn’t like any of them when I saw them, and no chinstraps on a painted lid is always a huge red flag.

Why are the missing chinstraps a red flag? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how having or missing the chinstraps would help or hurt the case for a painted helmet (unless of course the chinstraps are present and either fake or from the wrong era).


donation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/12/2020 at 7:39 PM, NKina91 said:

That’s definitely the same helmet as the one i purchased. So this one is an easy green fake? I’m not out much on either of them. 

Hi Nick,

The 3rd does not look like an "Easy Green".  But, given the long history of the helmet, who sold it, differing stories, maybe varnished at one point and being partially cleaned up and less than optimal photos, interpretation of your helmet is very problematic and collectors will shy away from this 3rd and the 1st as well.  When Klima started the thread in 2009 he saw something he liked.  Unfortunately he did not get the opportunity to personally study it at the time regarding its originality and least render a comment.  Since then, the original patina has pretty much been lost and it looks now, well, not great.  IMHO, these helmets should not be cleaned or messed with primarily, to avoid altering the patina, which is so crucial to perceived originality.  Second, painted helmets are a wonderful collecting niche, but the bar has to be raised on what you are willing to collect and the effort (research, showing it to others, etc.) to do so. 

The fact of the matter here, is that you have these in hand.  Having been in this situation a time or 2, I would hold on to the helmets and if possible, share them with some other collectors, such as at shows, so they can actually see them in hand.  On some, I have taken the time to actually mail helmets to certain people I trust from 20 years of M1 scrounging to get different observations and opinions.  Of course, coming back to raising the bar, there are people willing to help you, you just need to reach out before laying down the dollar.

regards,

pat

 


donation2009.gifdonation2012.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jpstout said:

Hi Nick,

The 3rd does not look like an "Easy Green".  But, given the long history of the helmet, who sold it, differing stories, maybe varnished at one point and being partially cleaned up and less than optimal photos, interpretation of your helmet is very problematic and collectors will shy away from this 3rd and the 1st as well.  When Klima started the thread in 2009 he saw something he liked.  Unfortunately he did not get the opportunity to personally study it at the time regarding its originality and least render a comment.  Since then, the original patina has pretty much been lost and it looks now, well, not great.  IMHO, these helmets should not be cleaned or messed with primarily, to avoid altering the patina, which is so crucial to perceived originality.  Second, painted helmets are a wonderful collecting niche, but the bar has to be raised on what you are willing to collect and the effort (research, showing it to others, etc.) to do so. 

The fact of the matter here, is that you have these in hand.  Having been in this situation a time or 2, I would hold on to the helmets and if possible, share them with some other collectors, such as at shows, so they can actually see them in hand.  On some, I have taken the time to actually mail helmets to certain people I trust from 20 years of M1 scrounging to get different observations and opinions.  Of course, coming back to raising the bar, there are people willing to help you, you just need to reach out before laying down the dollar.

regards,

pat

 

Very well said and points well taken Pat. The reputation of the 3rd definitely precedes it and thus casts a shadow over both of the helmets now. I would be willing to send them to anyone willing to get a much closer look at them in hand just as a last measure to make sure. Either way i will be keeping them for a few reasons. One being that it will be a good reminder to myself that very good fakes are out there, and two that i wouldn’t want them to end up back for sale and ruining someone else’s day. I appreciate and respect  everyone’s opinions here and want to thank everyone for their time spent looking at them. It’s a learning hobby and even though helmets are predominantly what I collect, we can all make a mistake or two. 
-Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Nickman983 said:

Why are the missing chinstraps a red flag? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how having or missing the chinstraps would help or hurt the case for a painted helmet (unless of course the chinstraps are present and either fake or from the wrong era).

Unfortunately I see a lot of the fakers go for pots that have no use to collectors so they paint them up, I.e rusted pots or ones with no chinstraps, or damages ones without the helmet trim. They are fairly cheap to get hold of, and will make a quick buck when selling if painted to some. 
 

i suppose you have to ask the question, IF you where a helmet collector would a rusted M1 helmet with no provenance and no chinstraps take your fancy ? $5 - $10 maybe. 
 

now go and paint some insignia on it . .

I think you can see where I’m going with this, 

 


go through everyone of Mr Chiaks, or Mr Jingles eBay listings  (seller from Italy)

no chinstraps 

 

that’s why in MY opinion no chinstraps is a red flag when paired with rusted painted up helmets With very collectible and desirable  WW2 insignias. 

 

just to add - the flag is there because I don’t like the painted insignias And the chinstraps are not there 

Not that the chinstraps are not there 

 



 


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2020 at 2:39 AM, NKina91 said:

That’s definitely the same helmet as the one i purchased. So this one is an easy green fake? I’m not out much on either of them. 

How much was paid for the 2 helmets, should be a good indicator
 

If the seller had what he thought to be 2 original painted M1s I’m sure they would be a pretty penny ! 


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will be looking at these for Nick this next week. So, I'll be doing that "in hand" inspection for him that you recommended Pat. 


"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif
donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif
donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bugme said:

I will be looking at these for Nick this next week. So, I'll be doing that "in hand" inspection for him that you recommended Pat. 

Having an in hand opinion will be good Scott !

 

 


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

did I see the seller name "ESTATE MAN??


donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifpost-2-0-82042400-1545944020.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:

just to add - the flag is there because I don’t like the painted insignias And the chinstraps are not there 

Not that the chinstraps are not there 

Gotcha, that makes more sense now.

I don't have high hopes for either of these but I'm looking forward to seeing what Scott has to say after having them in hand.


donation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

guys, as time goes on when it come to painted lids you have got to tread slowly. you have basement born artists out there that will screw you and not feel bad about it. lids and uniforms the 2 mines on your path.


donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifpost-2-0-82042400-1545944020.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nickman983 said:

Gotcha, that makes more sense now.

I don't have high hopes for either of these but I'm looking forward to seeing what Scott has to say after having them in hand.


believe me I hate being “the one” who writes I don’t like a piece. But I hate collectors being stung More, I’ve been one of them !  (jkash) incident and never got my money returned, And it was a lot of money. 
 

I now speak up, am I wrong sometimes, yes I’m only human. 
But I have learnt a little while doing this, hence the chinstrap answer. 
 

 I hope the OP has 2 great helmets and I am wrong.
If not I hope he can get his money back. 

 

as Costa also mentioned, it’s a minefield now ! And these are 2 of the helmets most often faked helmets out there. 
 

- Dean 


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not making any comments on the helmets, but the 3rd Infantry Division were known to cut the chinstraps off their helmets. There are many period photos showing this. 


Collector of Fixed bail M1 Helmets

https://m.facebook.com/M1Helmet/

"The dreams of Empire lure the hearts of Kings - and so men die" Burma, 1944

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:


believe me I hate being “the one” who writes I don’t like a piece. But I hate collectors being stung More, I’ve been one of them !  (jkash) incident and never got my money returned, And it was a lot of money. 
 

I now speak up, am I wrong sometimes, yes I’m only human. 
But I have learnt a little while doing this, hence the chinstrap answer. 
 

 I hope the OP has 2 great helmets and I am wrong.
If not I hope he can get his money back. 

 

as Costa also mentioned, it’s a minefield now ! And these are 2 of the helmets most often faked helmets out there. 
 

- Dean 

thank you for your comments Dean. They helmets are getting shipped next week for Scott to check out in hand. If you would also like to see them, I’ll gladly send them your way after. I read the whole jkash thing but didn’t know you got taken by him. It’s a tough hobby with how good the fakes are getting. I just really want to make sure these are bad before i write them off. Costa, in the 09 thread it looks like the 3rd ID helmet was acquired and then attempted to be sold by estate man. I read on that post that he was a flagged person. Wether not he had a hand in making it or just acquired and tried to sell it, i don’t know. Hopefully Scott will be able to shed some light this coming week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NKina91 said:

thank you for your comments Dean. They helmets are getting shipped next week for Scott to check out in hand. If you would also like to see them, I’ll gladly send them your way after. I read the whole jkash thing but didn’t know you got taken by him. It’s a tough hobby with how good the fakes are getting. I just really want to make sure these are bad before i write them off. Costa, in the 09 thread it looks like the 3rd ID helmet was acquired and then attempted to be sold by estate man. I read on that post that he was a flagged person. Wether not he had a hand in making it or just acquired and tried to sell it, i don’t know. Hopefully Scott will be able to shed some light this coming week.

I’m glad Scott is taking a look for you, that should shed some light on these helmets and give another opinion on them in hand (always better)

I honestly hope I’m wrong, keep me updated

 

yours

Dean  
 

 


"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.