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78th Division Reconnaissance tab for review


Chris
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Right as rain and a post-WW 2 period original. The construction and the materials are what you want to find. Many collectors are confused because of the color scheme, but have seen a couple of Ikes with it, and one was a direct, attributed vet pickup.

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I was hoping you would chime in Dave. Thank you. I know you have, at least, one. It looked great to me, but I have only seen a couple of these and have no reference to go to. It was really clean so just wanted to be sure. It's on the way and I am excited to see it. Thanks again

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Sorry but strongly disagree with the ID IF the colors are green and yellow. It is British Army 100% if colors are green and yellow. The 78 div colors red and white and understand what you say about confusion. Could this have been appropiated by the 78th from the British? Again only if colors are green and yellow;just a thought.

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They are Mort. But I have seen this tab associated with a 78th ID Occupation period group before. And Dave has had the same experience. I surely cannot say absolutely, positively, but there seems to be strong evidence that this tab was produced, probably for 78th Cav Recon Troop guys, during the Occupation.

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As soon as it arrives, I will take better pictures confirming the color and add them. Both perspectives are super helpful in getting this nailed down.

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As far as British shoulder titles go, I would NEVER expect to find a WWII era one in wire bullion. Bullion was retired from service during the war years by the British War Ministry. The only bullion work done during the war years was done for US and allied personnel who were willing to pay to have the insignia executed this way.

 

Wartime British shoulder titles will either be embroidered on felt or printed.

 

Al;lan

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As Per Les Hughes Many Many Years Ago It Is British Recon Troops Shoulder Title.I had one just like it called Les all excited and he blew me out of the water with the ID.Scotty

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Just FYI, it does indeed look like bullion in the photos. But it is not bullion. It is embroidered in a larger diameter thread.

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I have had many British RECONNAISSANCE shoulder titles over the years. This is smaller than the typical shoulder title, this features a border, and I have never seen a shoulder title embroidered like this one. There were indeed RECON shoulder titles in similar colors, but this is quite different in both design and size.

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That is a mirror image of the one I had; and in one of Les Hughes post he did not mention me by name but stated a well known dealer called him and tried to convince him a British Reconnaissance title had something to do with the OSS.That was at least 25 years ago and never forgot the Title or the " Don't Get To Big For Your Britches " conversation.I think if I dug deep enough I still have the title somewhere as an object lesson.Scotty

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I'm not normally one to dispute Les Hughes, but I'm curious what evidence he had to support this being a British Army Reconnaissance Corps shoulder title. As Chris and Allan both pointed out, it doesn't match "normal" examples of that type of title.

 

Also as Dave K. pointed out, these have been found over 78th Division patches on several occasions to include at least one direct vet pick up.

 

As for the 78th Recon Troop not using green as a color, thats simply not true. Here is another example of a 78th Recon Troop patch with an attached green tab (from my collection). I also own one like the tab being discussed here.

 

 

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Vance I think the guy to ask would be Les I am telling everyone what he said.Scotty

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I like Vances example and whole heartedly accept it as the real deal. Have seen multiple green and yellow varieties including Daves example as British. Vances example is Green but where does the yellow come in here? Would buy the idea if it was integral to the patch as Vances example; but seeing it loose is another story. Sounds like my Raider tab example in another post.

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Hi Team

 

I agree with Allan

 

The British were very economically driven during the war and as per Allan's comment embroidered on felt/wool or Printed on drill/Canvas the norm.

 

There are some examples of bullion worn in SEAC/CBI,however they are not as well produced as the one shown.

 

Below is a typical British WWII Reconnaissance Cloth Shoulder Title.They tend to be long 4.4 inches and they do not have a border.

 

One has to remember for a British individual to have used a Bullion or colorful patch was regarded as " American looking" and that was frowned upon and discouraged.

 

Phill

 

 

 

 

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I think the color scheme is probably the least mysterious part of this tab. This was for the 78th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop whose unofficial DUI was yellow and red with a black scroll below. I have included pictures of a pair in my collection, an illustration of the DUI, and a 1991 poster (78th Recon Troop and Horse Platoon 1943-46) done by "The Company of Military Historians" that the illustrated DUI appears on. As you can see, the tab features the yellow and black that appears on the DUI. I have never had a doubt that this tab is a legitimate Occupation period 78th Division item. I only posted this one to get a second opinion on its authenticity.

 

 

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The patches here are really nice examples. I like the scarce 78th Recon DIs also posted--I only have one of my own. I have prepared an article for a future ASMIC Trading Post about the Horse Platoons in Berlin, which were provided initially by the 78th, and found no photo evidence of any tab worn above the 78th ID patch in the 1945-6 time frame in Berlin. I believe the tabs must date before that.

 

There is a fantastic photo collection online hosted by Google Arts and Culture, which shows dozens of photos of the 78th Horse Platoon, with many close-ups showing the DI in use. It is interesting to note that the 78th patch appears to have been worn on both shoulders of many troopers.

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I just received the tab and thought a couple shots might be helpful, both in terms of showing the scale, and also a better shot of the colors. I placed it above a typical Occupation era bullion example and you can see the size is significantly smaller than most British shoulder title arcs. The background is black as opposed to a dark green, etc. One more thought as an aside, it is interesting that the colors are not unlike those found on some other Occupation period patches. This SHAEF has an integral tab featuring yellow "Berlin" on a black field. Maybe that played a part in the color combination as well?

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I don't own this patch but I found this photograph in my reference which shows an ordnance tab above a 78th ID SSI. The tab in this photograph and the one in question look like they were made during the same time period and by the same manufacture.

 

 

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They certainly do. Thanks for posting this. That Ordnance tab is a not something I have seen before. Do you recall what reference that appears in? Thanks

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They certainly do. Thanks for posting this. That Ordnance tab is a not something I have seen before. Do you recall what reference that appears in? Thanks

Sorry but I have so many photos that I can't keep track but this photo probably came off of eBay so it was up for bid at one time.

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  • 1 month later...
Bill Scott

I knew If I Dug Deep Enough I Could Find It.I Think This Tab Has Been Floating Around For Almost 30 Years.Scotty

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