Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
AZPhil

USAAC Uniform with Sam Brown belt Designation?

Recommended Posts

Hello All,

I picked up a really nice Sam Brown belt made by Fromby's and I would like to find a early USAAC uniform for it.

 

Did they use the same officer Green's uniform as they did later in the war and just switched from leather to the cloth belt?

 

Is there a specific designation for this type?

 

Basically I would like to know exactly what I should be looking for.

 

Thanks for any help in my quest..

 

Semper Fi

Phil


donation2014.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Army Officer uniforms in general in the first year or so of the war they had Sam Brown belts. If you look at the Officer on the left you can just make out the belt keeper on his uniform. These were phased out early in the war. The Army Air Corps was the Army. The uniforms were the same.

post-169522-0-14866700-1585543755_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took a look and I have a 1940 dated enlisted four pocket with belt keepers on it. On a side note your Sam Brown should be brown for Army. The Marines wore a black Sam Brown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at the officer on the right in the first photograph, you will notice that he doesn't have a belt at all on his blouse. The AAF allowed the "sewn in" belt that didn't have a buckle early on. This was most commonly found worn by aviation cadets. This is a rather uncommon variation.

 

You will also find that pre-war officer's blouses tend to not be as dark as the dark OD worn by officers in World War II and after. I would say that finding an officer's blouse that is slightly lighter in shade and is missing a belt would make a good candidate for your use of a Sam Browne belt. As an aside, finding one of these ought to not cost you an arm and a leg as a missing belt on an officer's blouse is the kiss of death as far as collectors' see it.

 

Allan


Never under-estimate the power of prayer.

 

donation2007.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Gent's for your replies.

This is the Sam Brown belt.

post-11740-0-12222000-1585592090_thumb.jpg

 

The patch that Matt has shown is the type of patched uniform I am looking for at this time to add the belt to. Early AAC. This would be my ultimate goal.

Thanks Matt for the link.

 

My problem was seeing officer uniforms with all the insignia/patches missing and wanted to know if it would be the one's with 3 gold buttons and 1 plastic button. or the type that has 4 gold buttons.

I didn't know the difference.

 

If there is no difference and according to what was said above,Besides the color difference, then an Officer uniform missing its cloth belt would work in a bind, I might go this route as I have one..

 

It is for my personal collection, Nothing that would be sold, Just something to be able to display this Sam Brown belt on and I want it to be correct.

 

I appreciate everybody taking the time to answer my questions.

Thanks again.

Semper Fi

Phil


donation2014.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could be mistaken, but I think most early coats had 3 metal and one plastic button (which was hidden by the belt, first leather and then cloth) down the front. The real early ones had holes on the sides for belt hooks to hold up the Sam Brown. It's not that the designations changed, but the uniform regulations did and the uniform tailors followed suit.

 

One of mine with a cloth belt, note plastic button.

post-32676-0-75675600-1585599344.jpg


donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif


donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif


donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matt,

I thought the same thing as far as 3 metal and 1 plastic. The 3 AAF officer uniforms I have, all have that setup.

But looking at the pic in post #2 by P-59A (on the right) and from some I have run across on some ebay sales is the 4 metal button officer type.

 

That was the part that had me wondering if there was different types for the leather Sam Brown belt.

 

Thanks for the belt hook attachment info. Great to know if wanting the right combo!!

 

Semper Fi

Phil


donation2014.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a debate on here whether coats with sewn on belts and no buckle were "air cadet" uniforms, but there is plenty of photographic evidence (such as above) that they were worn by pilots well after training was over. I have an October 1941 dated uniform that was modified by sewing the belt on permanently which covered the belt hook holes and a 4th button was added.

post-32676-0-90283400-1585604096.jpg

post-32676-0-41844900-1585604111.jpg


donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif


donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif


donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a debate on here whether coats with sewn on belts and no buckle were "air cadet" uniforms, but there is plenty of photographic evidence (such as above) that they were worn by pilots well after training was over. I have an October 1941 dated uniform that was modified by sewing the belt on permanently which covered the belt hook holes and a 4th button was added.

It shouldn't be debated, it's pretty easy to document that the two different styles, one for AAF and one for everyone else, were regulation until AR 600-35 Change No. 6 of 26 Nov 1942, which gave the same description for all officers. The cloth belt for non-AAF officers was authorized by Change No. 1, 4 Sept 1942.

 

1942 Officer's Guide:

 

post-3982-0-49752300-1585625938_thumb.jpg


donation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that's how the last debate ended, with the posting of the 1942 Officer's Guide. I don't recall now, but I thought the whole debate was about whether they were worn by cadets only, and I think we decided that probably happened later in the war as remaining earlier style coats were issued to aviation cadets. Thanks for posting the pics, I have the 1942 OG somewhere.

 

This coat I sold recently was worn by a photo-recon P-51 pilot.

post-32676-0-47417300-1585658088.jpg


donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif


donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif


donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I belive the AAF-style replaced the slate blue flying cadet uniform in late 1941, the idea being that graduates could just change insignia and add sleeve braid.

I would imagine that having two different styles of officer coats in 1942 created supply problems. My guess is that the aviation cadet coats, as issue items, had a bigger stockpile and were in the pipeline longer.
The Air Forces Newsletter, Sept. 1941.

donation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link. Yeah, in retrospect, a slate blue cadet uniform was pretty wasteful and useless to a pilot after graduation.


donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif


donation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif


donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my enlisted four pocket with belt keepers dated 1940.

post-169522-0-59529800-1585692356_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Gentlemen so much for the links and explaination about these AAC/AAF uniforms.

The link and information is very much appreciated. The photo's of your uniform really help identify the differences.

It was my first time seeing the uniforms with the belt with out the buckle and the type with the belt keepers. Learned something on those also.

 

I only have one 8th AF TSgt and 2 Officer uniform along with a 8th B-14 jacket.

 

My search for one that would wear the Sam Brown belt left me needing the information provided.

 

Thank you again for your time and replies to this thread.

 

Semper Fi

Phil


donation2014.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.