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Wide shield Dallas wing - Eisenstadt?


blind pew
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Does the shield look a little wider than the standard eisenstadt wings, or is it just the photos? The wings look very good in quality. Don't have it in hand, but will in a few days.

post-171127-0-45774000-1585487481_thumb.jpg

post-171127-0-61506800-1585487512_thumb.jpg

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reverse

Does the shield look a little wider than the standard eisenstadt wings, or is it just the photos?

 

post-171127-0-99625100-1585487592_thumb.jpg

post-171127-0-74061200-1585487619.jpg

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The stars look bigger than the standard Eisenstadt and if you look at how many vertical "bars" the "US" on the shield occupies, it is fewer than other Eisenstadts. The bottom of the shield seems to "bulge" more laterally than Eisenstadts, but not to the extent of a Haltom.

reverse

 

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Thanks- they look pretty cool, but don't you agree with the weird differences between this wing and the "standard" Eisenstadt? It looks like they really wedged in those stars and there is no unoccupied room at the top of the shield. Also, the horizontal beading that separates the stars from the "US" seems to taper upward (rather than downward) laterally. The feathers look identical to Eisendstadts. The reverse looks different than other Eisendstadts posted (when the bare metal is observable). There is not the hollowed area behind the shield. The "US" looks exactly like other eisenstadts, with the very square, angular appearance of the "S" in "US".

Beautiful wings. Congratulations. Mike

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blind pew,

 

Great wing! Although there is not yet information on the specific maker of these, Campbell (1991, p.17) suspected they were made by Shreeve of San Francisco but never found hard evidence.

 

These very scarce wings are sometimes referred to as the "wide shield Dallas" and are found in multiple configurations. A more traditional "Dallas-wing" configuration, and as yours in solid silver.

 

Here is my example:

 

post-594-0-96446600-1585490555.jpg

Since yours is solid sterling, and only marked sterling, unfortunately it doesn't shed any additional light as to the maker. At any rate, its probably not Eisenstadt.

 

Chris

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blind pew,

 

Great wing! Although there is not yet information on the specific maker of these, Campbell (1991, p.17) suspected they were made by Shreeve of San Francisco but never found hard evidence.

 

These very scarce wings are sometimes referred to as the "wide shield Dallas" and are found in multiple configurations. A more traditional "Dallas-wing" configuration, and as yours in solid silver.

 

Here is my example:

 

attachicon.gifDallas (wide shield) - 1.jpg

Since yours is solid sterling, and only marked sterling, unfortunately it doesn't shed any additional light as to the maker. At any rate, its probably not Eisenstadt.

 

Chris

 

Hmmm...................................... Thanks very much Chris! You guys are an encyclopedia of wing knowledge.

 

I guess I could see some differences, but thought it was just a "weird" Eisendstadt. Thanks very much (again) for the evaluation and information!

 

Don't the actual wings and feathers look like an Eisenstadt? Or are there differences there as well that I am not seeing?

 

Does the metal reverse of yours look like the one I posted?

 

Check out the "S" in the "US" as well, It has that identical shape of the "S" compared to other Eisendstadts, which is somewhat unique to that maker. I can see that Shreve as well uses the same type of "S".

 

So you think these are probably of Shreve origin, rather than Eisenstadt?

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Don't the actual wings and feathers look like an Eisenstadt? Or are there differences there as well that I am not seeing?

 

They are only superficially similar. There are numerous differences which you will really see once you get these in hand and can compare them side by side. A few off the top of my head:

 

  • Shield
    • Wider
    • More flared
  • Wings
    • Straighter across the top
    • More flared where they recurve back toward the shield at the bottom
  • Feathers:
    • Are in far higher relief
    • Are overall shaped differently
  • The gold US is made of slightly wider material and appears to be die struck instead of hand shaped, half-round gold wire

Here are the two badges, side by side, taken at similar angles. As you can see, the differences (subtle and stark) are numerous:

 

post-594-0-50604700-1585493238_thumb.jpg

post-594-0-56900500-1585493280_thumb.jpg

Of course I would not be Me if I didn't point out that there is no evidence that the lower badge was actually made by Eisenstadt. I prefer to call the maker of that badge as "unknown" instead of furthering the mis-information. I am keenly aware though that "a falsehood can make its way halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Alas, I fear that the evidence-less attribution to Eisenstadt that so many dealers have clung to has very deep roots.

 

Chris

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Does the metal reverse of yours look like the one I posted?

...

 

So you think these are probably of Shreve origin, rather than Eisenstadt?

 

blind pew,

 

Mine is configured like a "Dallas wing" (i.e. three pieces applied to a felt covered back plate) so I cannot see the back of the elements--I am generally not inclined to tear it apart :lol:

 

I don't know who made them. Campbell speculated Shreeve, but I tend to be very skeptical without evidence. I do know that these are an original pattern and different enough to argue for a different maker. I have a note that a badge sold on the internet at auction from a pilot who was stationed in California the entire war (possibly arguing for the Shreeve connection). But I have to admit that is circumstantial at best.

 

Chris

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Wow! You can really see the differences well side by side. Thanks for all the information and thoughts on this. I guess I just lucked into a weird wing because I did not know any better. I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss. I thought I was just getting a run of the mill Eisenstadt wing.

 

They are only superficially similar. There are numerous differences which you will really see once you get these in hand and can compare them side by side. A few off the top of my head:

 

  • Shield
    • Wider
    • More flared
  • Wings
    • Straighter across the top
    • More flared where they recurve back toward the shield at the bottom
  • Feathers:
    • Are in far higher relief
    • Are overall shaped differently
  • The gold US is made of slightly wider material and appears to be die struck instead of hand shaped, half-round gold wire

Here are the two badges, side by side, taken at similar angles. As you can see, the differences (subtle and stark) are numerous:

 

attachicon.gifeisenstadt 2.jpg

attachicon.gifDallas 002 obv.jpg

Of course I would not be Me if I didn't point out that there is no evidence that the lower badge was actually made by Eisenstadt. I prefer to call the maker of that badge as "unknown" instead of furthering the mis-information. I am keenly aware though that "a falsehood can make its way halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes." Alas, I fear that the evidence-less attribution to Eisenstadt that so many dealers have clung to has very deep roots.

 

Chris

 

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There are a number of these non-mounted Dallas type wings. I've seen about 4-5 in a very high end collection. For some reason these wings have never been shown in any of the reference books. They did exist and are pretty rare. You lucked out to get it! Cool beans

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Blind Pew, you've posted a stunning USAS Pilot wing! Thank you for your efforts and willingness to share such nice images!

 

I'm of the current opinion Shreves of San Francisco may not have had anything to do with that particular pattern... But I might be able to provide another small piece of the puzzle as to who may have produced yours?

 

I have a small but detailed 1.5 inch lapel (or overseas cap) pilot badge which is designed with a very similar shield and feather pattern on the front. And it has some "circular" design characteristics on the back which appear unique to your wing as well? And the cool thing about this small one is it has a raised "STERLING" mark, a raised "PAT. PEND" mark and a yet-to-be-identified raised hallmark.

 

 

 

 

Small WWI USAS UNK HM.jpg

Small WWI USAS UNK HM2.jpg

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Blind Pew, you've posted a stunning USAS Pilot wing!

...

 

I have a small but detailed 1.5 inch lapel (or overseas cap) pilot badge which is designed with a very similar shield and feather pattern on the front. And it has some "circular" design characteristics on the back which appear unique to your wing as well? And the cool thing about this small one is it has a raised "STERLING" mark, a raised "PAT. PEND" mark and a yet-to-be-identified raised hallmark.

 

Russ,

 

Another piece of the puzzle!?! Now you have officially piqued my interest! Please! Share this hallmark!

 

Chris

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(I'm having some issues with old images... not the Forum's fault)

 

Chris, when you have a moment... Please search the wing/badge archives for an old thread I posted a few years ago entitled "Small WWI era US Air Service Wings"... there's a couple of images of my little wing which Cliff was kind enough to enhance in our efforts to identify this still unknown hallmark? Thank you...

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Russ,

 

You mean these? Boy oh boy you are right, these definitely do look related!

 

post-594-0-99275300-1585521107_thumb.jpg

post-594-0-65806400-1585521122_thumb.jpg

 

Chris

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Thank you for your help Chris... I was hoping to locate a crisper image of the front for comparison.

 

This smaller wing has a proportionately wide shield, three distinct feathers in the shoulders, Dallas-like beading, and that circular indentation on the reverse similar to Blind Pew's full-size example... But I just don't know who the "S-ROY" or "ROY-S" hallmark represents?

Small WWI USAS UNK HM 1.jpg

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One more shot of the hallmark. Patent pending likely 1917-1918? Any ideas? Any other examples of this hallmark out there?

S ROY wingA.jpg

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Well that is very, very interesting! Now comes the hunt for a jeweler with ROY S (what was Sweeney's first name) as the hallmark. This is quite cool.

One more shot of the hallmark. Patient pending likely 1917-1918? Any ideas? Any other examples of this hallmark out there?

 

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Your site is the "provider of the feast". All I did was buy them. I thought these were Eisenstadts and was happy for the error I made! I guess this is karma, as I have missed some good pieces from your site, so perhaps fate smiled upon me.

 

I have noticed that you certainly get some interesting things, but I am usually too slow to get them.

Glad that you all like the wing, came in with an older collection of insignia.

 

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Maybe its an RGY and then S

Well that is very, very interesting! Now comes the hunt for a jeweler with ROY S (what was Sweeney's first name) as the hallmark. This is quite cool.

 

 

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Shot in the dark:

 

Roy S = Roy Seastrunk?

 

Patrick Doesn't Thomas Seastrunk's grave say "Roy Seastrunk?"

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Who is that?

 

I have looked around the internet for a similar silver hallmark and came up with nothing.

 

Again, perhaps it is "rgy", instead of "roy" as well.

 

If the "S" is large, that suggests a greater importance and is perhaps the first letter of the firm?

Shot in the dark:

 

Roy S = Roy Seastrunk?

 

Patrick Doesn't Thomas Seastrunk's grave say "Roy Seastrunk?"

 

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5thwingmarty

Connecting a couple of discussions on these wings I found that Thomas P. (T.P.) Seastrunk apparently went by the name Roy Seastrunk. Roy Seastrunk is listed as being part of the Linz Brothers Jewelers in Dallas in 1918. By 1920 he appears to have had his own company, the Roy Seastrunk Mfg. Co. and he appears to have died in 1924. 1920 was also when he was granted his patent for making insignia. Maybe someone can find something definitive on the hallmark or trademark his company used.

 

Marty

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That's great! There was also a "Roy & co" jeweler in provenance, RI at that time. However, I don't see where the "S" would come in. The Roy Seastrunk looks more promising.

Connecting a couple of discussions on these wings I found that Thomas P. (T.P.) Seastrunk apparently went by the name Roy Seastrunk. Roy Seastrunk is listed as being part of the Linz Brothers Jewelers in Dallas in 1918. By 1920 he appears to have had his own company, the Roy Seastrunk Mfg. Co. and he appears to have died in 1924. 1920 was also when he was granted his patent for making insignia. Maybe someone can find something definitive on the hallmark or trademark his company used.

 

Marty

 

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