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Help with determining which WWI Victory bars would be correct


aerialbridge
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aerialbridge

Appreciate If anyone would tell me the engagement bars that would be correct for a man in the 2nd Division, 23rd Regiment, 3rd Battalion overseas from May 15, 1918 through the Armistice, and if not too much trouble, the dates of the engagements. At some point, the man, who was from Minnesota, earned a WIA PH. The last name begins with a "G" and if anyone with experience in researching WWI Army vets were willing to give me some tips on what I should do to research the service and find out the engagement the PH was awarded for, I'd be grateful. Thanks.

 

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Don't have it broken down to the Bn but let's list what clasps and the qualifying dates for the 2nd ID

Montdidier-Noyon Jun 9 - Jun 13/18

Aisne-Marne July 15 - July 18/18

St Mihiel Sept 12 - Sep 18/18

Meuse-Argonne Sept 26 - Nov 11/18

Defensive Sector Unknown according to my reference material

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Swabbie,

 

I don't believe that the 2nd Division earned the Montdidier-Noyon bar. The five 2nd Division campaigns should be Aisne, Aisne-Marne, St Mihiel, Meuse Argonne, and Defensive Sector.

 

Allan

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aerialbridge

Gentlemen, thank you all VERY much for jumping on this. He was my great-uncle, EDWARD ADAM GEHRIG, from Cologne, MN, my grampa's older brother.. And I hope that his PH and WWI Victory medal are in good hands with a collector somewhere and not in a landfill. I'd like to find a representative WWI victory medal with the bars he would have earned, once I know what they are. Best regards, AB

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Hi,

 

His Minnesota World War I bonus file will provide the information you seek. The good news is that the records have been digitized and are available on FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2421524). The bad news is that you have to access the website at an official Family History Center to get access to the collection. Unfortunately, those are presently closed for obvious reasons.

 

-hist3891

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Allen,

I noticed that Aisne is mentioned in Michels' book, "World War I Victory Medals". My reference is from Al Gleim's Planchet Press Pub 21 (Addendum) where he references WD Circular 46 of 1924. His matrix lists Montdidier-Noyon vise Aisne for the 2nd. "The following chart is intended to provide a general guide to clasp entitlement. It is based on the service stated in the WD GOs and the guidance in Cir 46." He also states, "It applies to the major elements of the divisions. The GO listings should be checked to determine whether a specific unit had more or less clasps entitling service."

Does anyone have a WD GO source that can clear up the Aisne vs. Montdidier-Noyon discrepancy?

Dave

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Here are the battle credits for the 23rd Infantry. This is from Battle Participation of Organizations of the American Expeditionary Forces (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc2.ark:/13960/t6639rw5x). The exact bar combination Gehrig would have been entitled to depends on when he was assigned to the regiment and if he was evacuated after being wounded. The Minnesota bonus file will provide all of that information.

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My grandfather served in Battery A, 17th Field Artillery, 2nd Division AEF in World War I. The five bars on his campaign medal are as follows:

Aisne

Aisne-Marne

St Mihiel

Meuse Argonne

Defensive Sector.

 

I believe that if the Montdidier- Noyon credit in Gleim's book is in error. The 1st Infantry Division earned that bar. Perhaps he transposed the credit from the 1st to the 2nd?

 

Allan

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I went ahead and pulled my copy of "The Us Army In World War I: Orders Of Battle" by Richard A. Rinaldi. He lists the campaign credits for the 2nd "Indian Head" Division as Aisne, Aisne-Marne, St Mihiel, Meuse Argonne, and Defensive Sector. (Page 30)

 

Again, the "Montdidier-Noyon" credit shows up for the 1st "Big Red One" Division (Page 29)

 

Allan

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My grandfather served in Battery A, 17th Field Artillery, 2nd Division AEF in World War I. The five bars on his campaign medal are as follows:

Aisne

Aisne-Marne

St Mihiel

Meuse Argonne

Defensive Sector.

 

I believe that if the Montdidier- Noyon credit in Gleim's book is in error. The 1st Infantry Division earned that bar. Perhaps he transposed the credit from the 1st to the 2nd?

 

Allan

Allan, its quite possible this man and your grandfather crossed paths at some point during the war. He was with Battery D of the 17th Field Artillery.

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Allan,

Thank you very much for your research. Since I don't have a full copy of Circular 46, I can't argue the point. And yes, it is possible that Col Gleim made a transposition error.

Discussions like this one are what makes this a great group!

Dave

BTW, "Rinaldi" rang a bell -- so happens I have Louis Rinaldi's PH, Pvt, 308th Inf, 77th ID, not the lost Bn. His VM has the clasps O-A, M-A, DS -- born in Buenas Aires, Argentina (ex Dick Bruhn collection)

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aerialbridge

Thanks all for sharing your knowledge. Hist3891 I will contact one of the LDS "Family History Centers", there are two very close to my home, when they are open again to obtain his Minnesota Bonus File. Per Wiki, his transport USS America arrived in Brest, France on 5/18/18. I'm assuming he could have then been in the Aisne defensive from 5/31/18 to 6/5/18? At this point, other than earning a WIA PH at some point, all I know is that he returned to the US on 4/19/19 as a PFC in the "St. Aignan Casualty Co. 3429 Minnesota" with his unit being the 248th Military Police, per the passenger manifest of the SS Lorraine from Le Havre, France. So, unless his injuries forced him out of combat at some point, based on your comments and reference books, I understand he would have rated a WWI Victory Medal as posted, minus bar #2?

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The WWI Victory medal shown is one for the 3rd Infantry Division. To answer the question, yes, the other five were awarded to the 2nd Division AEF.

 

I do have a question about the vet's return home. Are you sure he was in a CASUALTY company as opposed to a CASUAL company? Most soldiers would have gone home in a CASUAL company. The unit that they went home with was only responsible for making sure they made movement etc. It wasn't a total transfer out of their previous unit. The vets wouldn't have changed shoulder patches, collar brass etc.

 

It was just a way to get everyone home.

 

Allan

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aerialbridge

Allan, thank you, you're absolutely right-- casual not casualty. Speaking of abbreviations and my lack of knowledge of such in the Army provenance, my other WWI Army great uncle, who is in my avatar next to my Navy grandfather, has on his VA gravestone at Ft. Snelling Natl Cemetery in Minneapolis, where all three are buried, "13 SVC CO CIG C"

 

Anybody know what that stands for? I couldn't find it in any of the VA or Army abbreviation references on line.

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