mdk0911 Posted March 6, 2020 Share #1 Posted March 6, 2020 what think all? https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-M1-AIRBORNE-HELMET-FRONT-SEAM-WESTINGHOUSE-PARATROOPER-LINER-NAMED-U-S-PARA/124108092299?hash=item1ce56b338b:g:xNgAAOSwu~ReYXkM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted March 6, 2020 Share #2 Posted March 6, 2020 Looks like a nice legit jump helmet??.....mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake1941 Posted March 6, 2020 Share #3 Posted March 6, 2020 Looks good but likely saw use in Korea, serial number is RA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdk0911 Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share #4 Posted March 6, 2020 thx for the answers - I'm not going to bid/buy this but thought to bring to the attention of the forum!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 6, 2020 Share #5 Posted March 6, 2020 Enlistment date 46 NARA file below Korean War for sure - nice solid lid, love the patina and jump liner on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 6, 2020 Share #6 Posted March 6, 2020 https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-detail.jsp?dt=893&mtch=1&cat=all&tf=F&sc=24994,24995,24996,24998,24997,24993,24981,24983&bc=sl,fd&txt_24995=Roby+g+martin&op_24995=0&nfo_24995=V,24,1900&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=4320260 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhcoleterracina Posted March 6, 2020 Share #7 Posted March 6, 2020 I believe that IWF is a reputable dealer who has had some amazing stuff in the past. That's not to say that even the best can't be fooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museums Posted March 6, 2020 Share #8 Posted March 6, 2020 Use caution with those NARA enlistment records as far as hard dates. They're sometimes missing data. My own grandfather shows an enlistment date of 1945, but he entered service in 1943 and was in combat in the Pacific by 1944. Searching the service numbers before and after his all have hits of 1943. I searched one number before and one number after the one in the helmet, and both showed enlistment dates as 1945-- and both enlisting in Richmond, VA just as this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 6, 2020 Share #9 Posted March 6, 2020 The file is there so take from It what you will - Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
museums Posted March 6, 2020 Share #10 Posted March 6, 2020 Also consider NARA states: "About 35% of the electronic WWII Army Enlistment Records have a scanning error. Most of these errors are because of the poor condition of the microfilm and the scanning mechanism could not properly “read” various characters on the punch cards." This is why I always look at a reasonable block of numbers immediately before and after-- it can often be very informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior45 Posted March 7, 2020 Share #11 Posted March 7, 2020 Hi As above, good looking airborne M1 heat stamp looks to be 1129, so production of the shell between Nov 44-March 45. The liners looks like it has green painted A washers so production between 43 to early 44. A nice looking set and the shell has a great look to it! Also consider NARA states: "About 35% of the electronic WWII Army Enlistment Records have a scanning error. Most of these errors are because of the poor condition of the microfilm and the scanning mechanism could not properly “read” various characters on the punch cards." This is why I always look at a reasonable block of numbers immediately before and after-- it can often be very informative. Great tip, thanks for this I had never considered it in the past!! Kind regards JEB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted March 7, 2020 Share #12 Posted March 7, 2020 As above, good looking airborne M1 heat stamp looks to be 1129, so production of the shell between Nov 44-March 45.The liners looks like it has green painted A washers so production between 43 to early 44. M1-C helmets were only produced from January 1945 until April 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken88 Posted March 8, 2020 Share #13 Posted March 8, 2020 Here is the official chart. Something to consider: You will find both front and rear seam shells with M-1C straps, of those straps, two patterns exist: an unreinforced pattern and a reinforced one (two bar tack stitches around the loops). According to the book Helmets of the ETO, the rear seam shell was introduced as of January 1945, the question then arises, why then is it possible to find front seam shells with reinforced M-1C straps? Were existing helmet stocks simply used up every so often? You could argue that this is the case, but here's the catch... all of those front seam M-1C helmets will have manganese rim material. This implies continuous and organized production, which perhaps makes it less likely that existing shell stocks were used up, these helmets - for the reasons mentioned above - would therefore require a different production date. Has anyone ever come across a rear seam M-1C with the unreinforced pattern of straps? Because bringing one of these forward would be able to shed some light on how the late war paratroop helmets were produced: fresh helmets finished in an organized fashion vs. stocks being used up every so often. Now, given the fact the airborne was fed up about the M2 helmet's quality, it's far more likely that the McCord company prioritized fresh helmets to be converted into paratrooper helmets. This, in my opinion, would date the first batch of M-1C helmets pre- January 1945, most likely November or December 1944. World airborne authority Michel De Trez' book American Paratrooper Helmets seems to suggest the same. Will we ever know? What should be thought of the (contd) in the chart below? Does a previous version of this chart exist? Or does it simply mean one month follows the other...? These are all important questions that need to be asked, since a fall/winter 1944 production date would make it reasonable to assume these helmets were used in combat operations after all. The first no-nonsense photograph of an M-1C helmet in use is dated August or September 1945. Did the airborne like the standard M-1 helmet enough to postpone shipment to the different theaters, or were M-1C helmets simply not properly documented during operations, the most plausible one perhaps being operation Varsity in March of 1945? Some M-1C helmets have surfaced on this forum, vet bring backs, that seem to suggest these helmets were in any case used during combat operations in both the ETO and PTO. Logic dictates 4 months or half a year is more than enough time for a helmet to be shipped from the McCord plant to the European battlefields. Shipping may have been slower at the time, but non-stop supply lines to and from Europe existed, and I want to bet one or 2 M-1C helmets will have been on those ships prior to Germany's surrender in May of 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted March 8, 2020 Share #14 Posted March 8, 2020 This, in my opinion, would date the first batch of M-1C helmets pre- January 1945, most likely November or December 1944. Note pre-1945 production of 0 at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken88 Posted March 8, 2020 Share #15 Posted March 8, 2020 Note pre-1945 production of 0 at the top. m1cprod.jpg Is that an official period government document? I guess if it's true 0 M-1C helmets were produced before January of 1945, at least one of my books is wrong. That or they simply did use up a stock of front seam helmets waiting somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Hazard Posted March 8, 2020 Share #16 Posted March 8, 2020 I've spent hours pouring through WWII HD footage and still am unable to see an M1C being used during WWII. Just watched footage of 11th Airborne operations in the Philippines May-June 1945 and they're all wearing a mix of standard infantry fixed bails and swivel bails, they were using tape and leather liner chinstraps to keep their shells and liners together. Why were there no M1C's used during WWII is a mystery to me, would love to see footage of one being used. I recall Mike (sgtdorango) stating that every named/ID'd M1C helmet he owned always had post-war serial numbers inside. I've seen front seam and rear seam M1C's, both stainless and manganese rims for both seams, some even had the early raised chinstrap buckles that you commonly see on fixed bails. Makes me wonder if standard M1's were taken and re-modified to M1C's at some point... Anyways, just thinking aloud. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatrandomguy Posted March 8, 2020 Share #17 Posted March 8, 2020 Here is the official chart. Something to consider: You will find both front and rear seam shells with M-1C straps, of those straps, two patterns exist: an unreinforced pattern and a reinforced one (two bar tack stitches around the loops). According to the book Helmets of the ETO, the rear seam shell was introduced as of January 1945, the question then arises, why then is it possible to find front seam shells with reinforced M-1C straps? Were existing helmet stocks simply used up every so often? You could argue that this is the case, but here's the catch... all of those front seam M-1C helmets will have manganese rim material. This implies continuous and organized production, which perhaps makes it less likely that existing shell stocks were used up, these helmets - for the reasons mentioned above - would therefore require a different production date. Has anyone ever come across a rear seam M-1C with the unreinforced pattern of straps? Because bringing one of these forward would be able to shed some light on how the late war paratroop helmets were produced: fresh helmets finished in an organized fashion vs. stocks being used up every so often. Now, given the fact the airborne was fed up about the M2 helmet's quality, it's far more likely that the McCord company prioritized fresh helmets to be converted into paratrooper helmets. This, in my opinion, would date the first batch of M-1C helmets pre- January 1945, most likely November or December 1944. World airborne authority Michel De Trez' book American Paratrooper Helmets seems to suggest the same. Will we ever know? What should be thought of the (contd) in the chart below? Does a previous version of this chart exist? Or does it simply mean one month follows the other...? These are all important questions that need to be asked, since a fall/winter 1944 production date would make it reasonable to assume these helmets were used in combat operations after all. The first no-nonsense photograph of an M-1C helmet in use is dated August or September 1945. Did the airborne like the standard M-1 helmet enough to postpone shipment to the different theaters, or were M-1C helmets simply not properly documented during operations, the most plausible one perhaps being operation Varsity in March of 1945? Some M-1C helmets have surfaced on this forum, vet bring backs, that seem to suggest these helmets were in any case used during combat operations in both the ETO and PTO. Logic dictates 4 months or half a year is more than enough time for a helmet to be shipped from the McCord plant to the European battlefields. Shipping may have been slower at the time, but non-stop supply lines to and from Europe existed, and I want to bet one or 2 M-1C helmets will have been on those ships prior to Germany's surrender in May of 1945. I have two M1Cs. Without a doubt I'm sure they're post war used, but they feature what I think are unreinforced chinstraps and rear seams. With one being stainless steel and the other magnesium steel. I've actually never seen the reinforced chinstraps, just the single stitch ones. I've always assumed single stitched chinstraps were more common? Both chinstraps side by side. The rear seams: The backsides: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken88 Posted March 9, 2020 Share #18 Posted March 9, 2020 Random guy, The M-1C with the single stitch should be far more rare, at least on the WW2 version. According to American Paratrooper Helmets initially a small number of helmets was fitted with unreinforced straps - the reinforcement being an improvement - needless to say your pictures have me in doubt should your helmets indeed be of ww2 vintage. This is the reinforced pattern of straps on one of my M-1C helmets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatrandomguy Posted March 9, 2020 Share #19 Posted March 9, 2020 Random guy, The M-1C with the single stitch should be far more rare, at least on the WW2 version. According to American Paratrooper Helmets initially a small number of helmets was fitted with unreinforced straps - the reinforcement being an improvement - needless to say your pictures have me in doubt should your helmets indeed be of ww2 vintage. This is the reinforced pattern of straps on one of my M-1C helmets. Heres another post with a similar helmet on this forum. Pretty much identical to my stainless steel helmet but in better condition: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/321589-m1c-late-ww2-helmet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elh1311 Posted January 8, 2022 Share #20 Posted January 8, 2022 Bit of a dead topic resurrection here but I think I have something that will help the overall discussion or so I hope. This an FS/SB M1-C helmet with at least one repaint that I can tell. All I can get for a heat stamp is the number "2". What's interesting is the that the short side chinstrap has the reinforced stitching while the long side chinstrap has only the single row of stitching. It does not appear that the long side chinstrap ever had reinforced stitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now