Paye & Baker of N. Attleboro, MA: examples and patterns

[5thwingmarty]

I believe another bad Meyer and Wenthe wing is on ebay in a grouping with some photos:

 

 

Note in the description the seller does not state the wing belonged to the pilot in the photo or that the other photos belonged to the pilot. The back of the wing looks like it was sanded, and the US looks like they used a dremel around the edges to try and make them look soldered on.

[blind pew]

Great example!

 

Of note, those look like very poor quality compared to what are the presumed authentic wings.

 

Thanks for posting that example. Looking at the quality of some of the wings not marked "Meyer and Wenthe", I really think that there are original examples. The fakes really look to be of poor quality in comparison.

On 4/4/2020 at 1:19 AM, 5thwingmarty said:

I believe another bad Meyer and Wenthe wing is on ebay in a grouping with some photos:

 

 

 

Note in the description the seller does not state the wing belonged to the pilot in the photo or that the other photos belonged to the pilot. The back of the wing looks like it was sanded, and the US looks like they used a dremel around the edges to try and make them look soldered on.

 

[rustywings]

Most are not hall-marked, only content marked "STERLING." I only know of two wings that bear the Paye and Baker hallmark. Paye and Baker marked ones are quite rare, and thus my suggestion of grabbing one should a collector actually find one.

 

Everything else above about evaluating these badges applies to the "STERLING" marked versions as well.

 

Best wishes!

 

Chris

 

If given the opportunity to closely inspect one of these non-hallmarked Paye & Baker designed "STERLING" marked badges, look for extra fine detail in the horizontal lines of the upper shield, as well as small and defined vertical lines between the ribs of the lower shield. You won't find that same degree of expected craftsmanship in the current ebay listing described above. And, as already outlined by Patrick and Chris, that Blancard catch with unique lever lock as well as a symmetrical and pronounced shaped archer's bow appearance is a must to determine authenticity with this particular type of badge.

[5thwingmarty]

Wow, are they all bowed this much or is this an extreme example? I don't think I have seen any other wing with this much curvature in the edge profile.

[cwnorma]

Marty,

 

Russ' fine example is fairly typical. Most good ones show this amount of bowing. Although as noted above, I have seen originals that were "flattened"

 

Chris

[blind pew]

Great pics! ( I am terrible with photos). That really shows the details well.

 

I have couple of those and yes, they are very "bowed". Thanks for the pointer on the extra fine horizontal lines on the shield.

 

If given the opportunity to closely inspect one of these non-hallmarked Paye & Baker designed "STERLING" marked badges, look for extra fine detail in the horizontal lines of the upper shield, as well as small and defined vertical lines between the ribs of the lower shield. You won't find that same degree of expected craftsmanship in the current ebay listing described above. And, as already outlined by Patrick and Chris, that Blancard catch with unique lever lock as well as a symmetrical and pronounced shaped archer's bow appearance is a must to determine authenticity with this particular type of badge.

 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

From @5thwingmartyMarty's files comes this great piece of evidence for the conversation. He found the library collection housing old Bailey, Banks & Biddle files and got scanned copies of military insignia records. One of those shows this wing, illustrated, along with a half wing, with the notation "Made by Paye and Baker". Question is, did BB&B stock P&B made wings? Or did they make them for P&B? It seems that since P&B was in Attleboro Mass and was a major silverware manufacturer, that they made these wings for resale by BB&B, which was an upscale jewelry retailer. That would also explain why many of these do not carry the P&B maker mark. And it would make sense that those which did, were probably sold directly by P&B.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Here is another pilot badge with the distinctive bow shape.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Adding Chris' WWOWW write up on Paye & Baker

 

 

[Wade16]

I obtained this wing today and thought I would add it to this thread. It has the deep bow, Tiffany style clasp, and is engraved with a woman's name.

[cwnorma]

@Wade16,

 

Nice example!

 

There are three WW1 aviators with the last name of Carr:  Richard A, Richard M, and William C.

 

Its a long shot, but if Eloise M was a wife, mother, or sister (and not a girlfriend or sweetheart) you might be able to track him down.

 

Best of luck!

 

Chris

[Wade16]

Thank you for the tip.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

I note in Newspapers.com that Miss Eloise Carr was quite the society belle at 18 in 1918-1919 living in San Antonio, TX!

[Wade16]

That is very interesting. Does the engraving have any affect on the value of the wings? What value do these types of wings go for now?