Jump to content

When was a cloth insignia approved/worn?


Midwestern85
 Share

Recommended Posts

Midwestern85

Probably a very basic question- but what determined if a cloth insignia would be created/approved/worn for a unit?

 

I am finishing up a collection of all the WWII infantry divisions. Looking for the next group to start collecting, I see there is a cloth insignia for the 36th Engineer Group. Battalions/regiments/etc. assigned to an infantry division didnt have unique CLOTH insignia, correct? So what made the 36th Engineer Group unique?

 

I am sure my ignorance is outed several times over, but an explanation for a newbie would be much appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Authorized insignia was based on size of unit and whether it was a separate unit. It was approved by the Office of the Quartermaster General (OQMG) until c. 1955: when it became the responsibility of The Institute of Heraldry (TIOH). Designs were created and approved, then sent out for manufacture. As u stated, infantry regiments assigned to an infantry division did not; separate infantry regiments, e.g. 442nd and 158th Regimental Combat Teams, had them.

 

Unauthorized insignia was made, usually overseas, whenever a unit decided they wanted one and their CO approved (usually). Not every overseas unit had an unauthorized cloth or metal insignia. Very popular following both world wars, during/after Korean War, went crazy during VN War, but today, very rarely as there are more regs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my old guard infantry unit. We were authorized to wear a large cloth subdued unit crest on the left top pocket of our BDU's

We had to remove them I think in the early 1990's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my old guard infantry unit. We were authorized to wear a large cloth subdued unit crest on the left top pocket of our BDU's

We had to remove them I think in the early 1990's.

Seem to recall there was a topic that showed a few of these BDU pocket patches, but cant ind it now, these were made but not used, you would be the only unit that wore them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When the Army came up with the Regimental scheme in the late1970s-early 1980s, they toyed with large subdued color embroidered DUIs to be worn on BDU shirt pockets. Many test samples were made and tried out by some units like the 3d Infantry at Ft. Myer.

I was stationed at Cameron Station, VA

a at the time and visited IOH often. One day one of the heraldic artists measured my BDU pocket to get dimensions for these never adopted insignia.

The Old Guard in the 1970s did for a time wear a black painted DUI on the pocket flap of the green fatigue shirt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

My question pertains particularly to WWII era.

 

So a unit like the 49th AAA Brigade has its own insignia because it wasnt attached to a division.

 

Wouldnt the 184th AAA, being a detached unit, also have an SSI? I am unaware of such a patch from WWII era.

 

Thank to all for your help so far!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My question pertains particularly to WWII era.

 

So a unit like the 49th AAA Brigade has its own insignia because it wasnt attached to a division.

 

Wouldnt the 184th AAA, being a detached unit, also have an SSI? I am unaware of such a patch from WWII era.

 

Thank to all for your help so far!

The patch you mention, the 49th AAA Bde was a rare one, basically an unauthorized one, at best locally ie unit approved. Normally units like these in WWII and throughout the 50s and 60s that were SEPARATE simply wore the shoulder patch of their higher command organization, these being an Army, a Corps or a Theater.

 

In WWII, the 36th Engineer Regiment/Group had a patch, unauthorized for many many years,with Seahorse The 36th Eng Grp in the Korean War in example photos show the seahorse patch as a helmet marking, either hand painted or a decal, but the patch these guys wore was their immediate command, this being IX Corps, as they were IX Corp Troops.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a photo of the 36th Eng Grp in Korea 1952, Seahorse patch on the steel helmet on the officers on left at least, with wearing the IX Corps shoulder patch on the EM on the right, the shoulder patch itself for the 36th Engineer Brigade of today was only approved in 3 June 2005.

 

post-34986-0-90499000-1579884055_thumb.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While the above photo shows at least one engneer with the IX Corps patch, we do know that the Groups Seahorse patch could be worn, but as mentioned as a unofficial one, here's one being worn in WWII during the Invasion of Southern France in August 1944.

 

post-3043-0-52694900-1554743316.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My question pertains particularly to WWII era.

 

So a unit like the 49th AAA Brigade has its own insignia because it wasnt attached to a division.

 

Wouldnt the 184th AAA, being a detached unit, also have an SSI? I am unaware of such a patch from WWII era.

 

Thank to all for your help so far!

Not quite.

 

In many cases, a separate, qualifying unit has to request an authorized insignia from OQMG, unless they want to make arrangements to have unauthorized insignia made, w/o knowledge or approval of the OQMG. Not every separate unit, e.g., your 184th AAA Gun Bn (as of yet) had insignia, either authorized or unauthorized. They would have worn the cloth insignia of whatever higher echelon (corps, army, brigade) they were assigned. There certainly has not been a metal insignia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing to add is that these WWII unapproved shoulder patches did turn up interestingly on uniforms as combat patches in the 50s and into the 60s, and they evidently were allowed, one case in point the patch for the WWII 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment, n theory the patch that should of been worn would of been one of the higher commands out in the Pacific, who knows maybe with an AIRBORNE tab, but that would need to be seen, say a GHQ or a 6th Army with a tab.

 

post-20483-0-72145300-1485715942.jpg

 

 

A Medical Corps Captain. in the 2nd Infantry Division during the Korean War receiving the DSC. He is wearing a 503rd Parachute for his combat patch.

 

post-624-0-19304500-1366489432.jpg

 

 

 

The 503rd PIR Rock patch as a combat patch worn by the CO of D Company 47th Infantry, 9th Infantry Division, Captain William J. Pfeffer, from the 1956 unit Yearbook of the Varsity Division.
post-34986-0-11198900-1365872010.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And this one just for fun, haven't ascertained if the patch on the right shoulder is a unit thing, albeit very brief, or was put on for the occasion, the lady in this topic is pushing 104 Years of age as of this day :D

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/174107-503rd-parachute-infantry-patch-being-worn-sighting/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh brother.... now I need to decide which direction my collection shall go. Or at least how much to encompass.

 

Speaking specifically to WWII era, can I assume unauthorized will be mostly theater-made? My thinking is unauthorized insignia would be less likely worn stateside than in the field. I know this cant be a hard and fast rule as Ive seen some unauthorized insignia identified in this thread with embroidered construction like the divisional insignia Ive already obtained.

 

Im having a hard time believing the military would allow such deviation on such an important aspect (unit ID), but the pictures leave no doubt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh brother.... now I need to decide which direction my collection shall go. Or at least how much to encompass.

 

Speaking specifically to WWII era, can I assume unauthorized will be mostly theater-made? My thinking is unauthorized insignia would be less likely worn stateside than in the field. I know this cant be a hard and fast rule as Ive seen some unauthorized insignia identified in this thread with embroidered construction like the divisional insignia Ive already obtained.

 

Im having a hard time believing the military would allow such deviation on such an important aspect (unit ID), but the pictures leave no doubt.

Want to talk about the patches of the Cavalry Reconnaissance Groups and Squadrons :lol: There were a lot of those, worn during the war, and as combat patches in the 50s-60s, but as you said, it can't be a hard and fast rule,as with a lot of the cav recon units wear ether an Army and to a lesser exent a Corps patch, patches that were worn, like say the 6th Cavalry Group, these patches were approved way after te war by the QM or the TOH, which ever was in charge of that in that time. The ones one does start to see in the 50s on will be U.S. Made examples just like the rest, some even like Patch King made stuff,

 

Even with these Cav ones some can be confusing.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/227787-15th-17th-cavalry-reconnaissance-squadron-shoulder-patches/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh brother.... now I need to decide which direction my collection shall go. Or at least how much to encompass.

 

Speaking specifically to WWII era, can I assume unauthorized will be mostly theater-made? My thinking is unauthorized insignia would be less likely worn stateside than in the field. I know this cant be a hard and fast rule as Ive seen some unauthorized insignia identified in this thread with embroidered construction like the divisional insignia Ive already obtained.

 

Im having a hard time believing the military would allow such deviation on such an important aspect (unit ID), but the pictures leave no doubt.

Yes, most UA insignia, whether cloth or metal, was theater made. Further, GIs wore what they could get away with. If you cant come to grips with that, dont know what else to tell you. ARs were routinely violated when it came to insignia. GIs wanted to be individuals.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seem to recall there was a topic that showed a few of these BDU pocket patches, but cant ind it now, these were made but not used, you would be the only unit that wore them.

Hi Patches,

We used to get a lot of looks and questions… And the subdued 33rd Brigade patch on the shoulder had some confusing us with medics !

But here it is. Worn on the left breast pocket of the BDU's until sometime in the 1990's I think it was they put the Kybash on it and we had to remove them.

Its the subdued 1st Battalion 131st Infantry Regiment. "1st Illinois".

post-181333-0-63124300-1579942468_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here you can see it being worn as it was worn by an old buddy back in 1983.

Kinda of "Subdued" Pardon the pun.. But you can see it there along with the 33rd brigade patch on his shoulder.

Medics ! lol lol We were work for medics! :)

The Cammo net on the face was his idea of avoiding those Dam Cammo sticks.

But there ya go. It was authorized and worn for many years. The story I got was that we were authorized to wear it

because the 131st Infantry won a presidential unit citation in ww1.

The 131 was also famous throughout the whole country during ww1 for putting down a large violent riot at the old Joiiet Prison

without killing anyone right before they deployed to France.

Thats the story I got back in the day.

If it looks like a halo around his unit crest its because he had the bad habit of ironing on his patches !!! lol lol lol

post-181333-0-85071800-1579943364_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Patches,

We used to get a lot of looks and questions… And the subdued 33rd Brigade patch on the shoulder had some confusing us with medics !

But here it is. Worn on the left breast pocket of the BDU's until sometime in the 1990's I think it was they put the Kybash on it and we had to remove them.

Its the subdued 1st Battalion 131st Infantry Regiment. "1st Illinois".

 

post-34986-0-34365800-1579959100.jpg

That's a nice PP, but this one would be a typical one from the 70s, some unit had them and wore them, most did not, this 131st Subdued one might of been worn in the 70s on the OD fatiques, the other ones that were specially made with the idea to wear on the new BDUs were embroidered on BDU cloth, was able to find two examples of these

 

The 3rd FA Bn Top and the 12th FA Bn below it.

 

post-34986-0-40825400-1579959118.jpg

post-34986-0-23562400-1579959130.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a sub forum (or maybe another forum?) for beginner collectors where these inquiries would be better suited? I feel like Im asking basic questions and I dont want to annoy people with trivial topics. And I have a lot more questions too!

 

Thanks for everyones responses!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So how do subdued PPs from the 1990s answer this newbie’s questions about WW2 patches? Or KW era patches?

Sorry bout that to the OP. Didnt mean to detract from your thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So how do subdued PPs from the 1990s answer this newbie’s questions about WW2 patches? Or KW era patches?

Is really a general talk on patches, to what was and what became, what was permitted, what wasn't, what troops did and could get away with. Pocket Patches, now there's a relative talk, because, like take those WWII Cav Recon Sq's, a lot of those wound up becoming pocket patches in the 50s into the 60s, some being eventually subdued, and now worn as shoulder patches, the more obscure ones wearing as combat patches for WWII vets In fact I was trying to add a photo to show these subdued ones like the 131st Inf, this one was one I seen on the forum, a OD shirt from the 70s with the 30th Infantry subdued pocket patch, just to show the type, go figure couldn't find it :lol: I can't remember, it was a high ranking officer a Major, and either a ARVN Ranger Vet or a Green Beret.

 

My personal belief, is new members, new patches enthusiasts, need to know it all from the start to finish, to take it all in, as it is an important part of the overall history of the United States Army, it just gives them more of a frame of reference to understanding all this :lol: It can only help, in time, if new patch collectors stick with the hobby (many do indeed lose interest) and the desire to learn more and more on all periods, they'll get it down pat.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a sub forum (or maybe another forum?) for beginner collectors where these inquiries would be better suited? I feel like Im asking basic questions and I dont want to annoy people with trivial topics. And I have a lot more questions too!

 

Thanks for everyones responses!

Nah your dong fine, at least for guys like me, it can be so detailed the trying to help out as to get side tracked, like take the divergence to talking about subdued pocket patches, this was a result of a rather germane reference to unauthorized or unapproved patches, with the knowledge that it was not only something that was seen in WWII, but continued right up basically to this day within the Army , but in reality it is all relative if we talk about patches, now if we start to talk about post WWII C Rations, or Revolutionary War Hessian Muskets or how to properly repair an M60 Tank's engine in this topic. that's different :lol:

 

 

But we will stay with the WWII post war 40s era, me and the rooster that is :lol:

 

But having said all that, while asking questions in a topic is fun and informative, there are also other means to learn more and more, one is ASMIC, check it out Yo, and the other, is Books Books Books Books, Most members of the mid 40s and 50 and over crowd that are interested in this and more, grew up with the enthusiasm without computers, and got the knowledge from books, and of course specifically published militiaria and military history magazines too. Most if not all us to this day have a virtual public library section of Militaria and Military History, and we keep addng to it, as there always new and interesting books coming out to this day, and not just America from WWII but from all periods, as well as other lands from ancient to relatively current, this last depending on the members interest, me, my interest basically end in the early 80s, the time I was in the service, the Army.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...