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AWSOME WW2 USMC PARAMARINE SILVER STAR GROUP


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1. What does the IMA do with this auction when informed of this post;

 

 

A few months ago, IMA had a painted A-2 flight jacket and other items for sale as an attributed group. A flight jacket discussion board posted the link to the sale and the dirt was immediately kicked on the pile. The jacket was a reproduction that was "aged", etc.

 

When it was brought to the attention of IMA, they pulled the sale.

 

Not saying they'd pull this Raiders' sale, but they might, especially if it's on consignment.

Always buying USMC named uniforms and unit marked items.




"Life is hard, it's harder if you're stupid"

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Anyone buying this for $5k, for just $20 more, can buy a "Certificate of Authenticity"      :rolleyes:   A few questions--

 

1.  What does the IMA do with this auction when informed of this post;

 

2.   If the medals alone were valued at $2k by George Harris 30 years ago and sold for that price,  what is the sum of the parts value of the genuine medals and the "add- ons" presumably by one or more collectors over 30 years (does it still add up to $5k? or what, in today's market)

 

3.    What exactly does the C.O.A. give a buyer beyond the words below? I don't read their language as a "money back guarantee" if all the items are not attributed to Luther Magee, just a warranty that the items are "period original" and not reproduction.  I note that the word "Grouping" is only used once, in the title.   Everything else in the description refers to "set".   "

Original Items: One-of-a-kind set."    The only item that has the word "his" is the Silver Star.

 

So what is the difference between a "group" or "grouping" and a "set".   Or is it a distinction without a difference.

 

 

Sets and Groups: Grouping different dimensions of data

by Elena Caric | Jul 6, 2017

When first starting Tableau it’s usually the case Groups and Sets get mixed up in people’s heads. This is totally normal as they are so similar. They both combine the units you’ve selected and create a new set or group with the data. There are differences between the two that I will try to sum up.

        The most significant difference is that sets are dynamic while groups are not. When your data changes the set will update with it while this is not an option with groups.

        Sets offer greater flexibility as you can link them to a condition. An example below will show conditioning.

        Sets appear in a separate window below your Measures and subsequently are easier to locate and don’t create clutter.

        You can group only within one dimension while with sets you can group across multiple dimensions

https://www.thedataschool.co.uk/elena-caric/sets-groups-grouping-different-dimensions-data/

 

 

 

That’s the point I made above . Coat doesn’t make any sense what so ever and other items in the grouping are easy to throw together. The medals are really nice.

 

As far as COAs go anyone can make their own, sign it, and claim that to be good enough. Big problem with those in a lot of hobbies across the board.

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A few months ago, IMA had a painted A-2 flight jacket and other items for sale as an attributed group. A flight jacket discussion board posted the link to the sale and the dirt was immediately kicked on the pile. The jacket was a reproduction that was "aged", etc.

 

When it was brought to the attention of IMA, they pulled the sale.

 

Not saying they'd pull this Raiders' sale, but they might, especially if it's on consignment.

 

Right. At the very least, the right thing to do (and for their reputation) would be to spell out clearly that only the medals are attributed to the veteran, or pull everything but the medals and reprice.

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Here is a picture of the group that I took many years ago at Dan's house. I know he added the wing and the patch for display purposes.

 

I must say that I personally don't think the asking price is out of line. If you sold off the pieces that were added, I think you would end up a 100% correct core group for a price that is below what I consider to be the medal group's market value.

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Here is a picture of the group that I took many years ago at Dan's house. I know he added the wing and the patch for display purposes.

 

I must say that I personally don't think the asking price is out of line. If you sold off the pieces that were added, I think you would end up a 100% correct core group for a price that is below what I consider to be the medal group's market value.

 

I figured that might well be the case, but coming from a knowledgeable dealer, that's good information for anybody reading this post and thinking about buying the group. Actually makes it more attractive for a pure medal collector that doesn't really care about having some or all of the add-ons and could sell them to bring down the cost basis for the medals without breaking up a bona fide group.

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Here is a picture of the group that I took many years ago at Dan's house. I know he added the wing and the patch for display purposes.

 

I must say that I personally don't think the asking price is out of line. If you sold off the pieces that were added, I think you would end up a 100% correct core group for a price that is below what I consider to be the medal group's market value.

I agree

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!!!!! Wanted!!!!!!!

USMC Chosin Reservoir Medal Groups

Cross Groupings: Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, and Distinguished Flying Cross Medal Groups
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First, before I get into any specifics , I am not affiliated with or , work for IMA. However, I have seen quite a bit of this collection as they acquired it and have helped identify some things , etc .

 

The way the collection was stored has created quite a bit of mystery for IMAs buyer as he sorts through everything in order to photograph and price .

 

US groupings such as this , are not the buyers specialty , I can attest to that . This grouping as its presented was all found in one box all together . Its been very difficult for them to determine what goes with what, and I can honesty say, that in the interest of keeping groupings together , this is why this was presented the way it is. I have implored them to keep groups together, as no one wants to buy a grouping they think is complete , only to find another part of it listed later on .

 

There were no records kept for the collection , as to what goes with what . All I can tell you is that its a great collection , but between its original storage , packing it in California then shipping it all to New York , stuff has gotten mixed up . Their buyer is working very hard to separate and preserve groupings . But there is only so much time , and the return on investment also of essence .

 

I cant speak for any things previously offered on the site , only for this collection at hand that will be offered . They are working with a few knowledgeable guys who really know and understand US medals, uniforms and groupings to check out the collection and to try to get things out of this collection right

 

I think the price is not that unreasonable, even if the uniform and extras dont belong , if someone were to purchase the group they could sell off the extras and have a nice medal group at a good price , IMO

 

Believe me, there is gonna be some really cool stuff listed over the next few months

Always looking for named items from Detroit area Vets!

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Here is a picture of the group that I took many years ago at Dan's house. I know he added the wing and the patch for display purposes.

 

I must say that I personally don't think the asking price is out of line. If you sold off the pieces that were added, I think you would end up a 100% correct core group for a price that is below what I consider to be the medal group's market value.

Ive been watching this thread and I like this assessment. What does the community think would be the value of the core group?

Wanted: Missouri Medals

 

I am always in search of Missouri Medals and Items. This could be anything from WW1, WW2, Prisoners of War, Ephemera, or anything pertaining to Missourians.

 

I thank you for your time and consideration.

 

-Without a witness, they just disappear.-

 

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Everybody's got an opinion, so here's a start. I'll say $3,- $3,500 just for the medals. George Harris sold an unattributed USMC #d China Service for $500 on ebay the end of October. Unnamed Purple Heart- $300? Good Conduct $400? $2,300 for Silver Star? (too low?) Expert dealers what say you?

 

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Everybody's got an opinion, so here's a start.  I'll say $3,- $3,500 just for the medals.  George Harris sold an unattributed USMC #d China Service for $500 on ebay the end of October.   Unnamed Purple Heart- $300?  Good Conduct $400?    $2,300 for Silver Star?  (too low?)   Expert dealers what say you?

 

Is the Engraved Silver Star considered to be worth less than the usual engraved Silver Star because the Marine is was not KIA? I am by no means a medal expert. I asked another collector who has interest in medals and he thinks that could play a factor. I guess it is another perspective.

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Is the Engraved Silver Star considered to be worth less than the usual engraved Silver Star because the Marine is was not KIA? I am by no means a medal expert. I asked another collector who has interest in medals and he thinks that could play a factor. I guess it is another perspective.

 

That's a great question. George's 1989 catalog gives a figure of 4,000 USMC WWII Silver Stars (compared to 70k for Army and ?? for Navy) but no breakdown on WIA or KIA. I would think the KIA would be worth more, but how many were awarded? My guesstimate was based on WIA for the Silver Star.

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That's a great question.  George's 1989 catalog gives  a figure of 4,000 USMC WWII Silver Stars (compared to 70k for Army and ?? for Navy) but no breakdown on WIA or KIA.  I would think the KIA would be worth more, but how many were awarded?  My guesstimate was based on WIA for the Silver Star.

I gotcha! I would like to know more about this topic as well, not just for this one, but for ones that come up in the future.
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I gotcha! I would like to know more about this topic as well, not just for this one, but for ones that come up in the future.

 

Absolutely, knowledge is a must when contemplating laying out serious coin for something like this that doesn't come along every day. Home of Heroes repeats that 4,000 figure for total USMC Silver Stars awarded in WWII, but no breakdown between KIA and MIA. Maybe one of the medal reference books gives it, or the USMC public affairs office you'd think would have it.

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The USMC was very stingy handing out valor medals especially at the beginning of the war. But this isnt a normal USMC silver star it was awarded to a paramarine. It is very hard to find officially engraved valor medals to Paramarines and Marine Raiders. They were disbanded early in the war. In this case I dont think the WIA vs KIA debate applies as much since this medal is so rare to begin with. It is officially engraved and I think that is all that matters. I should add to when it comes to trying to value the medal, the citation is a fighting citation and it is for the Guadalcanal campaign.

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!!!!! Wanted!!!!!!!

USMC Chosin Reservoir Medal Groups

Cross Groupings: Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, and Distinguished Flying Cross Medal Groups
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The USMC was very stingy handing out valor medals especially at the beginning of the war. But this isnt a normal USMC silver star it was awarded to a paramarine. It is very hard to find officially engraved valor medals to Paramarines and Marine Raiders. They were disbanded early in the war. In this case I dont think the WIA vs KIA debate applies as much since this medal is so rare to begin with. It is officially engraved and I think that is all that matters.

 

Probably $3500 is low then for the medal group, if I'm reading you correctly.

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The USMC was very stingy handing out valor medals especially at the beginning of the war. But this isnt a normal USMC silver star it was awarded to a paramarine. It is very hard to find officially engraved valor medals to Paramarines and Marine Raiders. They were disbanded early in the war. In this case I dont think the WIA vs KIA debate applies as much since this medal is so rare to begin with. It is officially engraved and I think that is all that matters. I should add to when it comes to trying to value the medal, the citation is a fighting citation and it is for the Guadalcanal campaign.

 

+1 in a big way!!!!!

 

I honestly don't think the asking price is might higher than just the medals are worth.

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If it is someone on the forums, will they raise their hand?

 

In case you still have crickets to your question in a few weeks, at least nice scans of the medals (and other stuff) are now out of the bag. This medal group is too unique not to be shared, in case they have gone to a closet collector, not to be generally seen again until a "sharing" collector owns them, or they're publicly sold like this group was. I took the time to screen shot the medals only and can post those later, particularly if the sales link goes dead. In 2020, here's a toast to seeing more medals and groups posted here, that collectors might otherwise never see, unless they're a friend of the owner. "Caring is sharing" is a corny, but true statement. Encouraging those who take the time to post (and motivating new collectors to join and post) with a simple "thanks" is not a bad thing. I've been on this forum for several years, both posting medals that I own, and enjoying seeing others do the same. I don't have stats but the number of threads started on different medals has definitely not been on the upswing nor has the number of collectors who are sharing scans of their medals. Here's a friendly suggestion for the New Year, to those that like seeing medals and groups, even if they belong to someone else. If no one else has taken the 3 seconds to type an acknowledgment to a post showing a medal or group after a day, take the 3-5 seconds to at least type "Thanks for sharing". It doesn't cost you anything and it can't hurt. Happy New Year to all.

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In case you still have crickets to your question in a few weeks, at least nice scans of the medals (and other stuff) are now out of the bag. This medal group is too unique not to be shared, in case they have gone to a closet collector, not to be generally seen again until a "sharing" collector owns them, or they're publicly sold like this group was. I took the time to screen shot the medals only and can post those later, particularly if the sales link goes dead. In 2020, here's a toast to seeing more medals and groups posted here, that collectors might otherwise never see, unless they're a friend of the owner. "Caring is sharing" is a corny, but true statement. Encouraging those who take the time to post (and motivating new collectors to join and post) with a simple "thanks" is not a bad thing. I've been on this forum for several years, both posting medals that I own, and enjoying seeing others do the same. I don't have stats but the number of threads started on different medals has definitely not been on the upswing nor has the number of collectors who are sharing scans of their medals. Here's a friendly suggestion for the New Year, to those that like seeing medals and groups, even if they belong to someone else. If no one else has taken the 3 seconds to type an acknowledgment to a post showing a medal or group after a day, take the 3-5 seconds to at least type "Thanks for sharing". It doesn't cost you anything and it can't hurt. Happy New Year to all.

I would post more often if someone would say thanks or comment once in a while, or, we had a Like Button. ( Like that's ever gonna happen.)

 

I would also post the good stuff if the Medals Section was blocked from outside searches. ( When the family comes knocking.)

 

 

Wharf

In Peace and War, US Merchant Marine. WARNING: Dangerous Cargo. No Visitors, No Smoking, No Open Lights.

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I would post more often if someone would say thanks or comment once in a while, or, we had a Like Button. ( Like that's ever gonna happen.)

 

I would also post the good stuff if the Medals Section was blocked from outside searches. ( When the family comes knocking.)

 

 

Wharf

 

Wharf, you're one of the guys who regularly shares scans of your collection-- thanks for all you've done to increase knowledge and participation in our shared past-time (and for some guys, a full or part time business.) Some ways to keep threads from being searchable, for both poster and viewer- 1. Don't name the thread or scan with anything traceable by a search engine. Title the thread something generic, like "Marine Guadalcanal Group" , use abbreviations ("2nd Div WWI DSM group") and name the photos "photo 1", "photo 2", etc.; 2. Don't type the vet's full name, and viewers also refrain from typing the name if the OP hasn't given it. Beyond that, even if somehow "the family" finds the thread and comes a knockin' and a wantin' "their" medal(s) back (despite your best effort to keep the thread low-key) when you "just say no", I doubt that a single collector here is going to judge you negatively for wanting to keep what you own.

 

Are there any collectors here that would negatively judge another collector for keeping something they lawfully own under any circumstances?

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A lot of times its very removed family members who comes calling !

I had a great great nephew who one time trying to strong arm me out of a wwii fighter pilots KIA group . Wanted it for free even after I proved it was legally obtained from another family member . I offered it at the price I paid not good enough . Kept bugging me on another forum until moderators stepped in. Its sad most times these people are nasty . I have had a few good exchanges with family though but more negative.

I will listen to them if they want to pay what I paid Im ok with selling them items back .

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I'm late to this party, but I'll chime in with my initial assessment, much of which was confirmed here...

 

-Wings were added to the group...first, they're rigger wings, not parachutist wings. While this alone doesn't mean enough, since some Paras wore them against regs, why are they still in the box? Wosk has been selling their packaged surplus for 15 years...I remember buying several sets when they first hit the market in spring of 2004...and they're still being sold off. I am always suspicious of packaged Wosk items in groups.

 

-My first impression when seeing the PFC stripes and the 1937 GCM was...how? Then I saw his records that say TSgt. And then seeing that he stayed in well after the war. Yes, he could have gotten another alpha blouse...and it happened, but that was rare, and continues to be. Marines don't like buying uniform pieces any more than they have to. As pointed out above, late war stripes with an early, blooded, Aussie-made SSI. And unnamed...sorry, but not for my money. IMO, the uniform is 100% put-together. Stripes probably original to the uniform, but SSI added, maybe cap added. Which makes me think the blooding is added to the SSI. Judging by the amount of times I've been contacted about my Paramarine uniform, Blooded Aussie Paramarine SSIs are worth a respectable sum. I'm not an expert on patch prices, but I don't think I've seen any Aussie blooded Paramarine patches sell less than $600, and that's on the low end since my memory isn't what it once was. So there's some salvage to the uniform.

 

-As pointed out, the wool SSI was added by a previous owner, and the parachutist wings.

 

All that said, I don't think $5000 was unreasonable to the group, given the sum of the parts. But neither medals nor patches are my forte....

-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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