Opinions on Black Helmet with Possible Overpainted Markings

[Nickman983]

I searched this forum for you. You may be destroying a piece of history.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/106107-what-type-of-wwii-units-would-have-black-helmets/

"When I was growing up, our neighbor was a Korean War USMC veteran who had lost a leg at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir.

After he passed away in the 1990s, his widow gave me his green uniforms and his combat used M-1 helmet. The salty helmet is of WWII vintage, fixed bail with a Hawley liner, and is painted black with a gloss finish. Due to the daylight supremacy of Allied airpower, the majority of enemy activity took place at night. I believe it was common practice for the Marines to use their camouflaged helmet cover in daylight and remove it at night to expose the black painted finish for better concealment after dark. Hope this helps your research. Best regards, Paul ..."

 

I haven't done anything just yet, though I'll probably hold off for a bit while I do some more research. I'm going to also spend a bit more time studying the paint to see if I can determine what exactly the red markings are before I do anything. What caught my attention in the thread you linked was this post:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/106107-what-type-of-wwii-units-would-have-black-helmets/&do=findComment&comment=788064

My only encounter with a black helmet was in a pile of 11th Airborne Korean War uniforms I purchased from the daughter of a veteran who was handling her dad's estate.

 

Supposedly my helmet was originally bought from the son of an 11th AB vet along with some sterling jump wings and some bring backs from Japan. I'm not 100% convinced on the story but I'm going to give it another go at finding a match based on the liner.

 

If anyone has a good starting point for trying to research the name I would greatly appreciate it. I've found some matches based on the WWII enlistment records but haven't been able to narrow it down much from there so far.

[Nickman983]

I was poking around the forum to find other examples of liners named in the same way as this one and I stumbled upon this thread http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/323409-wwii-named-m1-officers-helmet-and-liner/&do=findComment&comment=2597452

 

Looks to be done exactly the same way as mine, was this common practice during the post war occupation in Japan?

[matthewsq]

This thread talks a bit about black helmets, and 11th AB is mentioned in post #8.

 

May be of interest.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/106107-what-type-of-wwii-units-would-have-black-helmets/

[mccauslandpara1944]

It's worth removing in my opinion. You might find medic crosses or something unique.

[917601]

It's worth removing in my opinion. You might find medic crosses or something unique.

Or you might not....then it becomes a bubba piece.

[Justin]

Or you might not....then it becomes a bubba piece.

Agreed... sometimes things just are what they are..

[Nickman983]

There is definitely something to be found under the black, it's really a question of what. I'm fairly confident that it is not medic crosses. I've been studying the paint under the loupe some more and as far as I can tell the red isn't really a cross shape. The back is either a 3" x 3" square or a 2" x 3" rectangle. I think the markings on the side may be roughly rectangular shaped as well with the same approximate dimensions. While there is definitely a little red showing through on the front there isn't enough to get a good idea as to what shape it is. From what I can see they don't connect at the crown of the helmet either. No idea what markings like this would signify.

 

I'm probably going to hold off on stripping it, at least for the time being. I'm trying to do some more research before I decide to do anything. I went through the list of possible matches based on enlistment records. While I haven't been able to find a match so far, I have been able to narrow it down to 10 names. I've started a thread over on the unit/individual research forum if anyone wants to take a peak http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/334873-help-researching-named-liner-possible-11th-ab-vet/

 

I need to see if I can get my hands on WWII or occupation era roster records for the 11th AB somehow.

[Ray42]

Here I hope this helps: http://users.owt.com/leodonna/11thAirborneTaps.htm

It does not include everyone who served but it is a start and certainly has helped me locate some members of the 11th airborne whos uniforms I have found. I would ctrl+f and search each unit to see if a name pops up. If it doesn't then they could still have been in the unit and no one reported their death or are still alive. I am also not sure if it includes occupational members if they had not previously served in WW2, but it does include Korea.

[Nickman983]

Here I hope this helps: http://users.owt.com/leodonna/11thAirborneTaps.htm

It does not include everyone who served but it is a start and certainly has helped me locate some members of the 11th airborne whos uniforms I have found. I would ctrl+f and search each unit to see if a name pops up. If it doesn't then they could still have been in the unit and no one reported their death or are still alive. I am also not sure if it includes occupational members if they had not previously served in WW2, but it does include Korea.

 

I posted this on the other thread but I figured I'd follow up here as well.

I poked around the site a bit more and found some additional resources that I hadn't seen before. The yearbook rosters for the 511th are available on their site as well as the 1950 yearbook and the KW casualties list for the 187th. Unfortunately I was not able to find a match in any of those either.

It does look like the list includes some members that were only in the 11th during the occupation period, assuming their death was reported.

I think there's a good chance part of the reason I'm not finding anything on that site (assuming the 11th AB connection is legit) is that either the vet in question is still alive or his death was not reported to the webmaster of the site. I've tried looking up the obituaries for the individuals who may be a match. I was able to find a few that gave me enough information to exclude them as a possibility but for the rest I either found nothing online or there was not enough information to rule them out.

In any case, I really appreciate the help!

[sgtdorango]

Ive looked through my 11th AB resources and havent found your guy yet...mike

[Nickman983]

Ive looked through my 11th AB resources and havent found your guy yet...mike

 

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the help!

[manayunkman]

Being that the overpainted mark appears to be red and white could he have been an engineer?

[Nickman983]

Being that the overpainted mark appears to be red and white could he have been an engineer?

I'm not familiar with engineer markings so I'm not sure. However, I haven't seen any white under the black so far. I think the white in the close-up pictures of the paint is mostly dust. The camera on the microscope doesn't handle the black paint the best as it's a bit glossy and messes with the colors a bit.

[Bob Hudson]

I was poking around the forum to find other examples of liners named in the same way as this one and I stumbled upon this thread http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/323409-wwii-named-m1-officers-helmet-and-liner/&do=findComment&comment=2597452

 

Looks to be done exactly the same way as mine, was this common practice during the post war occupation in Japan?

 

 

What a match: this helmet style has just gone from being an oddity, to being a new genre of M1 helmets.

 

[Blacksmith]

It is likely to be a barracks *fire guard* helmet, from the looks of it.

[Nickman983]

It is likely to be a barracks *fire guard* helmet, from the looks of it.

 

I think you may be right. That could also help explain the black over paint, maybe it was repainted black for guard duty elsewhere on a base?

 

In either case, I did some poking around on the forums and found this liner which may be similar to the markings under the black http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/191935-opinion-on-wwii-sg-helmet-liner/&do=findComment&comment=1489439

[Bob Hudson]

 

I think you may be right. That could also help explain the black over paint, maybe it was repainted black for guard duty elsewhere on a base?

 

 

A fire guard helmet would usually be unit gear, hung on a rack for use by whomever has that duty any given night. Do officers even do fire watch?

[manayunkman]

Interesting way the name is put on the liner.

 

Even the two liners are variations one being paper and the other looks like canvas.

[sgtdorango]

Looks to me like the whole helmet might be painted red under the black, in one of your photos i can see red peeking out near the front top crown....mike

[Blacksmith]

Assuming the shell and liner are original together?

 

 

A fire guard helmet would usually be unit gear, hung on a rack for use by whomever has that duty any given night. Do officers even do fire watch?

[Nickman983]

Interesting way the name is put on the liner.

 

Even the two liners are variations one being paper and the other looks like canvas.

 

I think that the name is on friction tape on my liner, I can't speak for the other one but I thought it was interesting that it was done in nearly an identical fashion.

 

Looks to me like the whole helmet might be painted red under the black, in one of your photos i can see red peeking out near the front top crown....mike

 

I've been spending a decent amount of time studying the paint on this one to try to get a better idea of what might be under the black. I think you're right about there being some red up there, but I'm fairly confident that the whole helmet is not red. There's a good amount of OD showing up under the black and there are a few spots where the original OD still comes through. No real way to know for certain though unless I decide to strip the black.

 

 

A fire guard helmet would usually be unit gear, hung on a rack for use by whomever has that duty any given night. Do officers even do fire watch?

 

I was thinking an extra helmet could have been needed so one of the fire guard helmets was grabbed and repainted rather than an individual repainting their issued helmet. I'm far from an expert on how gear was issued and used though so I could still be off. To your point about officers doing fire watch, there's nothing on the liner/helmet that indicates it was an officer's. The liner from the other thread was part of a 2nd Lt. set but mine doesn't have anything but a name.

 

Assuming the shell and liner are original together?

 

 

I only have the story the seller was told when he originally bought this set and there's not enough rust to compare rust staining so there's no telling. Easily could have been put together right before I bought it but I paid for the item and not the story.

[Nickman983]

When helmets were repainted was the paint always lead based? I had a few of the home lead testing kits and I hit up the red and the black and neither test showed positive for lead. Makes me curious what vintage the paint is.

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

did fire watch ever use shells? or just liners?

[Blacksmith]

I would say that depends on era, and maybe even unit. By the time I was in, steel pots were phased out, so N/A. I have seen earlier examples of *fire guard* (red painted) shells and liners.

 

did fire watch ever use shells? or just liners?

[Nickman983]

When helmets were repainted was the paint always lead based? I had a few of the home lead testing kits and I hit up the red and the black and neither test showed positive for lead. Makes me curious what vintage the paint is.

Any thoughts on this?