Bobertizkewl Posted October 24, 2019 Share #1 Posted October 24, 2019 This DSC has been on a well-known medal site for awhile. I was just wondering what everyone's opinions of it were. Korean War DSC engraving seems to vary in style quite a bit but I've never seen this style before. For reference, is this a known Korean War style DSC engraving? Also, this DSC has a wrap brooch and numbering which appears to be made by the U.S. Mint during their WW2 contract. However, the medal is sold with a blue Robbins Company cardboard box. It would also seem that a MIA/KIA DSC should've been presented with a black/gold titled case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobertizkewl Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share #2 Posted October 24, 2019 Engraving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 24, 2019 Share #3 Posted October 24, 2019 It's not official engraving. Or, to caveat: I've seen a bunch of officially engraved Korean War ones and that's not at all what I've seen before. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 24, 2019 Share #4 Posted October 24, 2019 Also, just looking at the description, it's a posthumous award, so the engraving would definitely be wrong... From their website: "Following this event, Sgt Griego was missing in action and was presumed dead December 31, 1953. The distinguished service cross was awarded posthumously to Sgt Simon Griego in September 1952." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnertwo Posted October 31, 2019 Share #5 Posted October 31, 2019 I'll add my agreement to Dave, not what I've seen and not like the one in my collection. G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskjl Posted October 31, 2019 Share #6 Posted October 31, 2019 There is another medal on eBay with a similar engraving style: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NAMED-LEGION-OF-MERIT-ARMY-COMMENDATION-MEDAL-WW2-KOREAN-WAR-LT-COL-JACK-R-HAZEN-/264280896352 it looks like this was posted here on the forum several years ago. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/167893-korean-war-mia-dsc-reccomended-for-medal-of-honor/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 31, 2019 Share #7 Posted October 31, 2019 The engraving styles are quite a bit different, actually. I'll steal Clinton's image of the eBay medal for ease of reference...As far as the DSC in question being posted in 2013 without commentary on the engraving is because we, as a community, have come a long way in learning about engraving styles in the last six years, and bad engraving, like this medal, is much more obvious now than it was then.I'm sure when Robin bought the DSC originally, he was buying it with the understanding that it was a legitimate medal...but we've learned a lot since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskjl Posted October 31, 2019 Share #8 Posted October 31, 2019 The engraving styles are quite a bit different, actually. I'll steal Clinton's image of the eBay medal for ease of reference... As far as the DSC in question being posted in 2013 without commentary on the engraving is because we, as a community, have come a long way in learning about engraving styles in the last six years, and bad engraving, like this medal, is much more obvious now than it was then. I'm sure when Robin bought the DSC originally, he was buying it with the understanding that it was a legitimate medal...but we've learned a lot since then. Can we agree that both styles are pantograph engraved? I wonder if his MOH consideration slowed the award of the DSC? Finally, I agree on the value of time and experience, and have great appreciation for how far we have come on the forum as a result. Respectfully, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 31, 2019 Share #9 Posted October 31, 2019 Can we agree that both styles are pantograph engraved? I wonder if his MOH consideration slowed the award of the DSC? As far as pantograph engraving, yes, they both are engraved via pantograph. However, anyone with a pantograph can engrave a medal...I could buy a New Hermes pantograph right now on eBay for less than $500 and start churning out named medals (see the attached image)...but the problem is that I don't have the correct fonts, the correct engraving tips, the correct depth settings, etc. that the government used during the time period(s) (Here's a good article about pantograph engraving: https://www.engraversjournal.com/legacyarticles/2207/) If you're suggesting that the engraving is different because of his MOH certificate, that's not a factor. His posthumous DSC would have been machine (pantograph) engraved and the style would have been esentially the same if it had been awarded in 1952 or 1972. He would not have been awarded a hand-engraved DSC at the time of his death or award. So the problem comes in that it's a medal with unknown provenance with an engraving format that is not known from any other engraved medal from any time period. I have seen some strange, one-off medals that eventually led me to finding more of those medals over time and actually documenting unusual engraving styles. However, those typically have had provenance which have led credence to their originality from the start (like the Purple Heart to MOH recipient Mitchell Red Cloud; unusual engraving when I first saw it, even though the provenance was direct from the family...and later, I found and have owned awards in the same engraving hand...) With this particular DSC, I get back to the lack of provenance behind it; no other awards from the same fellow or paperwork (perhaps if the guy's other awards were there, properly engraved, accompanied by official documentation I'd be comfortable making a case for it being original engraving) so it makes it very tough to say "Yes, this is proper engraving" on the medal instead of "this medal is privately engraved and as a posthumous medal, is incorrect". I'm aware Robin probably paid a premium for it, but unfortunately, Robin was learning along with us all and, as we all have, bought some items that were more hype than reality. It's the nature of learning - he just had more disposable money to buy higher end things at premium prices than the majority of us. But in the end, all the hope in the world that this is a correct, original, piece means nothing unless there's some serious provenance that can overcome the mountain of evidence against it. Aside from a thread in 2013 where no one commented on the engraving and the fact that Robin bought it at some point...the level of provenance has a long way to go in order to prove that it's real. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted October 31, 2019 Share #10 Posted October 31, 2019 I would have to agree with Dave on this one. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskjl Posted October 31, 2019 Share #11 Posted October 31, 2019 As far as pantograph engraving, yes, they both are engraved via pantograph. However, anyone with a pantograph can engrave a medal...I could buy a New Hermes pantograph right now on eBay for less than $500 and start churning out named medals (see the attached image)...but the problem is that I don't have the correct fonts, the correct engraving tips, the correct depth settings, etc. that the government used during the time period(s) (Here's a good article about pantograph engraving: https://www.engraversjournal.com/legacyarticles/2207/) If you're suggesting that the engraving is different because of his MOH certificate, that's not a factor. His posthumous DSC would have been machine (pantograph) engraved and the style would have been esentially the same if it had been awarded in 1952 or 1972. He would not have been awarded a hand-engraved DSC at the time of his death or award. So the problem comes in that it's a medal with unknown provenance with an engraving format that is not known from any other engraved medal from any time period. I have seen some strange, one-off medals that eventually led me to finding more of those medals over time and actually documenting unusual engraving styles. However, those typically have had provenance which have led credence to their originality from the start (like the Purple Heart to MOH recipient Mitchell Red Cloud; unusual engraving when I first saw it, even though the provenance was direct from the family...and later, I found and have owned awards in the same engraving hand...) With this particular DSC, I get back to the lack of provenance behind it; no other awards from the same fellow or paperwork (perhaps if the guy's other awards were there, properly engraved, accompanied by official documentation I'd be comfortable making a case for it being original engraving) so it makes it very tough to say "Yes, this is proper engraving" on the medal instead of "this medal is privately engraved and as a posthumous medal, is incorrect". I'm aware Robin probably paid a premium for it, but unfortunately, Robin was learning along with us all and, as we all have, bought some items that were more hype than reality. It's the nature of learning - he just had more disposable money to buy higher end things at premium prices than the majority of us. But in the end, all the hope in the world that this is a correct, original, piece means nothing unless there's some serious provenance that can overcome the mountain of evidence against it. Aside from a thread in 2013 where no one commented on the engraving and the fact that Robin bought it at some point...the level of provenance has a long way to go in order to prove that it's real. Dave I'm pretty comfortable with my understanding of pantograph engraving as i started using one when i was a young apprentice behind the jewelers bench and have engraved thousands of pieces over the years; both hand, and motorized. What i was asking (not suggesting) is if the timing of the DSC might have been slowed as decision on the MOH was being made, and if that might have had any effect on the engraving method, hand vs machine. As to provenance i agree completely, provenance is KING. As to "hope" there is no financial gain in the sale of the medal for me, i'm simply trying to help liquidate a friends estate for his widow. Your help and that of so many other forum members during this process has been amazing, and greatly appreciated. This piece will be going into auction in Nov. with a reduction in price reflective of the feedback here. Respectfully, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted October 31, 2019 Share #12 Posted October 31, 2019 I'm pretty comfortable with my understanding of pantograph engraving as i started using one when i was a young apprentice behind the jewelers bench and have engraved thousands of pieces over the years; both hand, and motorized. What i was asking (not suggesting) is if the timing of the DSC might have been slowed as decision on the MOH was being made, and if that might have had any effect on the engraving method, hand vs machine. As to provenance i agree completely, provenance is KING. As to "hope" there is no financial gain in the sale of the medal for me, i'm simply trying to help liquidate a friends estate for his widow. Your help and that of so many other forum members during this process has been amazing, and greatly appreciated. This piece will be going into auction in Nov. with a reduction in price reflective of the feedback here. Respectfully, Will the auction description include the concerns voiced here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskjl Posted October 31, 2019 Share #13 Posted October 31, 2019 Will the auction description include the concerns voiced here? i made a request and the price will come down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskjl Posted November 5, 2019 Share #14 Posted November 5, 2019 This one is up for auction now, starting bid $400 https://www.emedals.com/specialcollections/a-gentleman-s-collection-a-comprehensive-selection-of-20th-century-american-gallantry-casualty-awards/united-states-a-distinguished-service-cross-to-sgt-griego-38th-inf-machine-gun-cover-mia-taeusan-korea-1951 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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