Another Iwo Jima flag-raiser was misidentified

[Blacksmith]

I am not sure who else caught this story, but I thought I would share it here just in case:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/another-iwo-jima-flag-raiser-was-mis-idd-marine-corps-confirms-report

 

Per the article, the Marine previously-thought to be PFC Rene Gagnon was actually CPL Harold Keller.

[dhcoleterracina]

Just Wild.

 

A few years ago they discovered another mis-identification by a amateur historian recovering from surgery. Apparently he was looking at photos while recovering and discovered the mistake. That Marine survived the war and went to his death without saying anything to his family or friends. I wonder in this new case whether or not the Marine survived the war and if so, did he ever say anything?

[GIKyle]

In the article I read the newly-identified Marine did survive the war.

[cbuehler]

I find this extremely surprising as well. It almost turns everything about this iconic historic incident topsy turvy. Both Gagnon and Bradley are now found out to be the wrong men in one of the most famous historic photos of all time.

Incredibly hard to believe that both Keller and Schultz said nothing, nor did Bradley or Gagnon!

Could they possibly not have known or were not sure? I find that hard to believe as well. Was the truth known to others and never mentioned due to the fact that the men who did go on the post battle tour were already selected?

Not to disparage either Bradley or Gagnon, but this is an embarrassment for them in many ways as their legacy is now questionable.

CB

[M422A1]

My understanding is that Bradley did help raise the first flag, just not the second, but he was there when it was raised. And Gagnon brought the second, larger flag up the mountain and helped take down the smaller flag as the second flag was being raised. So both were there and did help out in one way or another.

[cutiger83]

I find this extremely surprising as well. It almost turns everything about this iconic historic incident topsy turvy. Both Gagnon and Bradley are now found out to be the wrong men in one of the most famous historic photos of all time.

Incredibly hard to believe that both Keller and Schultz said nothing, nor did Bradley or Gagnon!

Could they possibly not have known or were not sure? I find that hard to believe as well. Was the truth known to others and never mentioned due to the fact that the men who did go on the post battle tour were already selected?

Not to disparage either Bradley or Gagnon, but this is an embarrassment for them in many ways as their legacy is now questionable.

CB

Recently, i was reading a book where the veteran totally forgot about an incident until he saw a video of the battle. To us now, that was an iconic event. To the veteran who was there, it was one day of many days. We may never know the answer to why they never said anything but there are lots of possibilities.

 

Kat

[cbuehler]

My understanding is that Bradley did help raise the first flag, just not the second, but he was there when it was raised. And Gagnon brought the second, larger flag up the mountain and helped take down the smaller flag as the second flag was being raised. So both were there and did help out in one way or another.

 

Yes, we know both of them were present, but we now know that neither were participated in the photo op, which is what has been misrepresented in the photo for so long.

The fact that none of the surviving participants, both in the photo and around it, did not want to talk much, if at all, about the action may be telling in some way.

Reading relevant articles about this on the Web, it seems that there was likely some tacit knowledge about the truth of who was and wasn't in the photo among the survivors.

 

CB

[dhcoleterracina]

I think that anyone on Iwo Jima in February of 1945 was a hero.

 

The whole Suribachi flag raising(s) history is very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but not one shot was fired during the entire hike up the mountain with the first flag. Once there at the top, a couple Japanese soldiers emerged from a cave and were killed. The first flag is believed more important since that flag created a real sense of victory to the Marines fighting and the sailors on the ships, all of whom could see it. Rosenthal wasn't the only photographer to capture the moment of the second flag raising and Rosenthal didn't know he took a great picture until weeks later. Ira Hayes threatened to harm anyone who identified him as a flag raiser. Bradley received the Navy Cross and as said, helped raised the first flag. Almost immediately after the first flag raising there were discussions/arguments over who would get the flag.

[Blacksmith]

There is also an interesting story (I think) related to the video of the flag-raising, as captured by Bill Genaust. It includes the differences in where video versus still film was developed, and implications on how long it took each to make it to the US. This comes with at least an implied question of whether Genaust would have been awarded the Pulitzer had the video footage reached America first.

[m1ashooter]

I find it also very interesting that what the nation and the Corps has believed as fact is now changing. Maybe thats why Mr Bradley didn't want to talk about it knowing the harm his speaking up would cause.

[Blacksmith]

I have always felt that photo to be emblematic of the struggle and sacrifice of all of those that served in the Pacific. Especially, as I was looking at that photo for decades before I knew the names of any of the individuals.

 

Not railing against any particular period of time, but in the era of social media, maybe the focus has shifted a bit - shifted from we, to me. It does not surprise me, having been fortunate to know many WWII veterans, that this was not a conversation they were interested in having - further complicated by the fog of war, as it is so called.

[gomorgan]

It's been widely reported in Iowa due to his connection to state, interviews with daughter talked of the picture of flag raising always being in home but father never discussed or talked with the children.

[Brig]

I find this extremely surprising as well. It almost turns everything about this iconic historic incident topsy turvy. Both Gagnon and Bradley are now found out to be the wrong men in one of the most famous historic photos of all time.

Incredibly hard to believe that both Keller and Schultz said nothing, nor did Bradley or Gagnon!

Could they possibly not have known or were not sure? I find that hard to believe as well. Was the truth known to others and never mentioned due to the fact that the men who did go on the post battle tour were already selected?

Not to disparage either Bradley or Gagnon, but this is an embarrassment for them in many ways as their legacy is now questionable.

CB

It's well known that Ira Hayes did try to speak up at the time about at least one misidentification (Harlon Block), and was pretty much told to keep his mouth shut at first, due to the fact the names had already been made public. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the others brought it up and were similarly shushed, or saw the shushing Hayes received and just knew where it would go it they did.

 

After the war, for the most part, the men left the photo behind them...not only was it representative of one of the worst parts of their lives, but the way they were paraded and forced to be celebrated during the War Bond drive most certainly would have done little more than reinforce their survivor's guilt. I imagine it's not something they would have wanted to think about. Maybe they even thought they were doing them a favor by shielding their family from the rabid media. It's well known that Bradley was harassed for decades by the press around the anniversary of the flag raising, Bradley's son recalls it vividly in his book.

 

It's also well known that Rene Gagnon did attempt to cash in on the image, when he fell on hard times he tried to use the many business cards and promises of jobs he received to land stability, but by the time he was discharged the promises of jobs had turned empty. When those promises still lingered, I'm sure it would not have been in his personal interest to correct the mistake, and when the job offers didn't work out he may have felt it was yesterday's news and nobody would care, since to him that must have been how it seemed.

[cbuehler]

I think Brig is touching on something that has remained unsaid regarding this whole incident. The men were selected and paraded and that was that.

Too late to be revised and any dissention was probably hushed by official circles. Circumstances are a bit different today. Back then, people tended to do as they were told and no gripes about it.

 

CB

[Westy]

Rene Gagnon was placed on the flag after Keller & Schultz elected not to participate on the 7th (they both earned this right).  We have an AP article dated April 6th, 1945 stating that the lone survivor of the second flag raising Rene Gagnon was returning to Washington to participate on the bond tour.  The article quoted Rene as saying he would rather make another operation versus making a bond tour.  This trial balloon did not float.  On April 9th, the next AP article states Doc & Ira also raised the flag.  Doc’s war was over due to his injury, he was a hero (Navy Cross recipient) that saved many, many marines & helped raise the number one flag.  Both Rene & Doc did exactly what was asked of them for the good of this great country.  Ira was the likely third as he was obviously on the flag and also was suffering from battle fatigue (PTSD).

[Westy]

On 10/17/2019 at 6:51 PM, Blacksmith said:

Rene did not bring up two but brought down the first flag as we see him in Campbell’s photo reaching for number one.  He states that he did not bring up number two but jumps in once it was readied to go up.  Doc in his May 45 Navy interview states that Strank & his patrol brought up number two flag & finally Ira states in his 46 letter to Mrs. Block that half way up the mountain Strank informs Sousley, Block & Hayes that he has received orders to raise the larger flag.  We see Strank’s utility & field jacket wide open in Rosenthal’s flag steadying photo (both Keller & Schultz are off picking up stones).  Subsequently, buttoned up in “Gung Ho”.  We now have a photo of Gagnon smoking as Rosenthal & Genaust are underneath the first flag.

 

[Blacksmith]

23 minutes ago, Westy said:

 

Looks like you deleted content before adding your comment?

[Westy]

My sincerest apologies as I believed I messed up & wrote over a reply.  My bad, Westy

[Westy]

The gist of my reply was

that Gagnon did not bring up the number two flag.   He, Doc and Ira all state that Stank’s patrol brought up number two with orders to raise the larger flag.  Strank’s utility & field jacket are wide open in Rosenthal’s flag steadying photo (Schultz & Keller are off picking up stones for the base).  Both are buttoned & zipped up in “Gung Ho”.   We have a pic of Gagnon smoking by Campbell with Genaust & Rosenthal celebrating under number one when they reach the summit.  Strank’s patrol is not yet there.

[Westy]

Obviously Ira was part of Strank’s patrol.  He wrote to Mrs.  block that halfway up Suribachi they stopped to rest & Strank informed Ira, Block & Sousley that he was given orders to raise a larger flag.  In Rosenthal’s flag steadying photo we can see both Strank’s utility & field jacket wide open as he was carrying the flag beneath them.  In the Gung Ho photo both are zipped & buttoned back up.