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Marbles Knife Dating


capt14k

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First is there a definitive thread for dating Marbles Knives?

 

Secondly I purchased this one on a whim. I assume pre war 1940 maybe?

 

Assymetrical Pommel, Marlbles without an apostrophe, brass guard. Back of Sheath is marked with name, location, and number.

 

Can anyone say for sure to it's date and / or point me in the direction of a definitive thread?

 

 

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You have a WW2 era Ideal. During WW2 they went to the plastic pommel probably aluminum was hard to get. The sheaths also did not have a Marbles stamp. I have not seen any site that has information.

Dennis aka nifman

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You have a WW2 era Ideal. During WW2 they went to the plastic pommel probably aluminum was hard to get.  The sheaths also did not have a Marbles stamp. I have not seen any site that has information.

Dennis aka nifman

Thank You. I have been able to piece together 1960s and 1990s and sort of 1930s from various sites but nothing comprehensive

 

 

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Source: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_10.htm

 

Marbles 5 inch Ideals in Military Usage

 

We are trying to gather any information on the 5" Marbles Ideal pattern knife for a future article. The main gist of the article will be the use of the knives by the Army Air Force as a part of the Emergency Sustenance Kits issued to each aircrewman during the war. We have some information on them but lack any connection with Marbles actually having a military contract. So far we have not found any evidence that they were purchased by the government. We all assume that the Bakelite pommel models were wartime issue but can we prove it… not yet. We do know that Marbles started using the plastic pommels during 1942 / 1943 but they also continued to sell them right up through the 1950’s so that in itself does not make it a military issue piece. Perhaps they could not obtain the aluminum pommels during the war and converted to the plastic but only for the private sales they still held. We also know that Camillus, Case and Kinfolks made the same pattern knife and sold them to the government for the AAF so why not Marbles? Either way it is an interesting subject that we wish to know more about. If you have any proof on the subject, such as a written document, not an oral history, we would be mighty glad to hear from you!

Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:
 

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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Source: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_2.htm

 

Marbles Mark 2??

 

Another recently discovered knife is a 7" Marbles Ideal. It has a seven groove leather handle with a Jet Pilots pommel. The blade is marked Marbles / Gladstone / Mich, U.S.A.@ and the full cross guard is made of brass. Placing this knife next to a typical Mark 2 one immediately notices the striking similarity. Not being a dyed in the wool Marbles collector maybe it is a typical knife but it is the first and only one I remember seeing. It turned up at the Oregon show and was quickly snapped up. Lucky collector! Any further info available on this one?

Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:
 

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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Any pictures of the Marbles 7" possible Mark 2? Also what is a Savage M99 bayonet?

 

 

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Any pictures of the Marbles 7" possible Mark 2?

 

I didn't see any pictures related to the mentioned Marbles 7" possible Mark 2.

 

 

Also what is a Savage M99 bayonet

 

Apparently, it appears to be a real expensive knife/bayonet.

 

 

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Specific areas of collecting and buying interest:
 

WWI/WWII 40th (Sunshine) Division, Camp Kearny, Camp Harry Jones, WWI/WWII 158th Infantry, USS Oklahoma, Pearl Harbor Survivors Association, Mexican Border (1916),

Norman Air Technical Training Center (NATTC) Norman, OK, Tinker Field or AFB, Submariner Items, Knives, Bayonets, Sweetheart Jewelry, other unique

or odd items with interesting stories.

 

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Just looked up info on the Savage 1895 rifle, which paired with the 1899 bayonet. Interesting to say the least. Had never heard of either. SKIP

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I would say most Marbles knife collectors do not follow this forum but there are several old knife collectors in the UP that can probably answer some of your questions as they are routinely set up at the gun/knife shows in the Gladstone and surrounding areas but they dont follow forums. When I was a kid everyone had a wrist/button compass, match case, and an ideal or woodcraft knife. There are some general rules about the direction of the A serif, thickness of the washers, and materials, etc. and most of those identifiers can be found online. Good luck with your book.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Source: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_2.htm

 

Marbles Mark 2??

 

Another recently discovered knife is a 7" Marbles Ideal. It has a seven groove leather handle with a Jet Pilots pommel. The blade is marked Marbles / Gladstone / Mich, U.S.A.@ and the full cross guard is made of brass. Placing this knife next to a typical Mark 2 one immediately notices the striking similarity. Not being a dyed in the wool Marbles collector maybe it is a typical knife but it is the first and only one I remember seeing. It turned up at the Oregon show and was quickly snapped up. Lucky collector! Any further info available on this one?

 

I remember years ago seeing a Marble's trailmaster (10" blade) with a JPSK pommel. Just for fun I did a search on eBay and look what I found. Item #113724681084.

 

post-17422-0-37202700-1562810348_thumb.jpgpost-17422-0-48755400-1562810363_thumb.jpg

 

Don't know what to make of this exactly. Some things that come to mind are;

Parts knife

lunch box special

custom customer request.

donation2014.gif

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I didn't find too much WWII Marbles Info but I was able to compile some info that may help narrow down time-frames of Marble Knifes from posts by others. Hope it is of some help.

 

The knives with the MSA mark date between 1901- 1911.

 

1906-1914 lignum vitea pommel, large pommel nut, coco bolo handle.

 

1915 first year for woodcraft

 

Pat. pend and has a stag pommel then you have a rare woodcraft. They were only made and marked that way in the year 1915. There have been examples of woodcrafts with the pat pend mark that had leather handles and aluminum pommels. Even some stag with aluminum pommels in 1915 that have been documented.

 

The stag handle and the leather handled Woodcrafts, had stag pommels until 1920. Marbles used the round pommel until 1923.

 

1919-20 Marbles started using the aluminum pommel, and in 1923 changed from the 1/2" to the 3/8ths tang nut. They started using the tear drop pommel around the same time as the 3/8th nut, and the patent ran out in 1932. Marbles quit stamping with the "pat'd" mark 1932.

 

They used the left facing serif A on knives from 1911-WWII. Also no Serif during WWII

 

Three line stamp with a right facing serif (little fancy line) on the letter "A" was used from the late 40's to the late 50's.

 

Plastic pommels were unpopular and was discontinued in 1953.

 

Marbles used the Moose and Goose sheath from the mid 1950's to around 1970.

 

Dating pattern from 1997 to 2000:

 

B=Black

Br=Brass

W=White

R=Red

 

1997: B-Br-R-R-Br-B-Br (pattern reverses on pommel end of handle).

 

1998: B-W-Br-R-R-Br-W-B

 

1999: B-Br-W-R-R-W-Br-B

 

2000: B-Br-Br-W-R-W-Br-Br-B

 

 

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The marble knives that can be WW 2 connected are the ones with a left facing serif on the A in the marbles stamp.These knives should have the 1/2 inch pummel nut. The 2 line stamps on the 7 and 8 inch blade started in 1918 till the end of WW 2. These 7 and 8 inch knives are what I consider to be WW 2 fighting knives. The first stamps used are the small marbles stamp from 1911 to around 1913. Then they used the large marbles stamp from around 1914 to 1915. The regular size marbles stamp with the left facing serif was used from around 1915 to the late 20s or early 30s.

There is no standard dating the knives by the color spacers in the handle. They used what they had.There might be a pattern but I would not use this to date a knife The colored spacers in the older knives were random.

I do not know of any contracts for marbles knives by the military besides the original order for the pilots knives (500)

The knife pictured is an expert late 1960’s. The black spacers in the handle are different than the standard configuration. My guess it was a special order knife

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The marble knives that can be WW 2 connected are the ones with a left facing serif on the A in the marbles stamp.These knives should have the 1/2 inch pummel nut. The 2 line stamps on the 7 and 8 inch blade started in 1918 till the end of WW 2. These 7 and 8 inch knives are what I consider to be WW 2 fighting knives. The first stamps used are the small marbles stamp from 1911 to around 1913. Then they used the large marbles stamp from around 1914 to 1915. The regular size marbles stamp with the left facing serif was used from around 1915 to the late 20s or early 30s.

There is no standard dating the knives by the color spacers in the handle. They used what they had.There might be a pattern but I would not use this to date a knife The colored spacers in the older knives were random.

I do not know of any contracts for marbles knives by the military besides the original order for the pilots knives (500)

The knife pictured is an expert late 1960’s. The black spacers in the handle are different than the standard configuration. My guess it was a special order knife

 

 

The color spacer dating was only for those years. Which one is 1960s the last one posted? Is the one I posted WWII?

 

Multiple sources stated no serif was used also during WWII era is that not the case?

 

 

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Yes you are correct about no serif being used during the war. These knives continued to be marked like this after the war thus you can’t say its WW 2 because it could have been made in the 50’s. I have seen this claim about dating marbles knife by the color spacers even the knives from the 90s. I have asked this question to some marbles employees from this time frame and they told me no you cannot date knives by the spacers.

I think the knife you posted is not the one I commented on.

A very good marbles knife book is the one by Arni Dunathan (the encyclopedia of marbles knives. ) He’s a Very nice guy who I can call a friend.

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I just wanted to add that the knives with the left facing serif were made before WW 2. These knives were some what plentiful before WW 2 and were used in the war. The no serif knives were also used but like I said could have also been made after the war.

I collect both marbles and military knives. I have so many marbles knives that Lately I’m focusing on the m3 fighting knives. There is no marbles knife that you can say this is from WW 2 unless it or the sheath-has markings that can date it.

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Here’s a little known fact about the marbles pilots knife. The serrated edge on the top had a flaw where some are cracked. I was told this was one reason why they lost there contact with the government. Just something you should look for before purchasing the early pilots knife.

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I just wanted to add that the knives with the left facing serif were made before WW 2. These knives were some what plentiful before WW 2 and were used in the war. The no serif knives were also used but like I said could have also been made after the war.

I collect both marbles and military knives. I have so many marbles knives that Lately I’m focusing on the m3 fighting knives. There is no marbles knife that you can say this is from WW 2 unless it or the sheath-has markings that can date it.

I bought the Encyclopedia and two other Marbles books. Can never have enough books. My Sheath is marked R Clark with a number shown in the second pic. I guess I need to research the name and number to be more sure of the date..

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Charlie Flick

This has been a good discussion on the Marbles blades. I own some and have always admired the brand. Like others here, over the years I have struggled to find definitive information on their details and dates of production. The available information seems to be all over the map, much of it being fragmentary and often contradictory. The information provided above seems as solid as any I have seen.

 

I looked for the Encyclopedia of Marbles and found one copy on Amazon at $130. Yikes. I have some of the old catalogs. What are the other Marbles books or printed sources that are considered to be authoritative?

 

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

I want to change my answer to the dating of marbles knives. Yes they did use a dating system with the color of spacers in the later years. I talked to some other marbles collectors and found out I was given some wrong information.

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  • 3 months later...
militarycross

post-8864-0-20117200-1587232139_thumb.jpg

 

Hello

I wonder if anyone can have a look at this 10" Marbles Knife and give me an approximate age.

Found it in the basement cleaning just now.

 

cheers,

phil

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attachicon.gifIMG_2320.JPG

 

Hello

I wonder if anyone can have a look at this 10" Marbles Knife and give me an approximate age.

Found it in the basement cleaning just now.

 

cheers,

phil

 

 

That is an older Marble's Trailmaker. They were made from 1909 - 1959. We'd need to see the stamp to say more.

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militarycross

post-8864-0-23459500-1587248084_thumb.jpg

 

This part what you need?

 

And does the snap have to say Marbles?

 

Thanks.

 

phil

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