dhcoleterracina Posted May 12, 2019 Share #1 Posted May 12, 2019 I did look thru the pinned section on jump wings but didn't see CB, only pin back. I recently bought a partially stripped AB Ike and there is a CB indentation for the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z19 Posted May 13, 2019 Share #2 Posted May 13, 2019 I've seen a few CB jump wings that I believe were WWII and a couple I know were, but they were all theater made. There are several guys on here who can probably give you a much better answer though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted May 13, 2019 Share #3 Posted May 13, 2019 Clutch back insignia has existed since the 1930's and it was actually more expensive than the pin back fastened pieces. WWII vintage parachute badges with clutch fasteners do exist, but they are rather uncommon to find is a legit WWII grouping. Aviation wings are a little bit different as we can find documentation that the US government was prescribing clutch back wings as early as 1943. These are the wings that we collectors associate with "graduation wings." After WWII clutch back wings get much more common, so without a letter-number maker's mark, a lot of post war wings get thrown into the "WWII era" category. Since the collector value on clutch back vs pin back is decidedly less for CB, a lot of guys faking uniforms go for the cheaper CB examples when "souping up" a uniform to sale. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhcoleterracina Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share #4 Posted May 13, 2019 Thanks Allan and Z19, very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digi-shots Posted May 17, 2019 Share #5 Posted May 17, 2019 Allan, thanks for your post. Does the length of the pin help date the wing? I think I read where the shorter pins are earlier (ie WWII) and the longer are post war?? (this was referenced somewhere before when looking at CIB clutch back badges, not sure if it applies to aerial wings). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted May 19, 2019 Share #6 Posted May 19, 2019 The earliest WWII clutch back insignias normally have rather short prongs and I have had many veterans tell me they wore their Combat Infantry Badges on their Ike jacket pockets because they couldn't keep the CIBs on the chest from having the clutch fasteners pop loose. I have also had a lot of WWII aviation vets say that their issue wings had such short prongs that they could only wear them on their shirts. Of course, with a little work, you can get both insignias to stay in place when affixed to a blouse or jacket. After WWII, the clutch prongs were made longer by insignia manufacturers based on the complints that they had received over previously manufactured insignia. Of course, with any foreign made insignia, the prongs can vary greatly in length on WWII era manufactured pieces. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfrost Posted May 19, 2019 Share #7 Posted May 19, 2019 Ditto what Allan said. There are a few things that you can sometimes tell about the age of a clutchback wing, although there are always exceptions, variations, modifications and alterations. However, roughly speaking the longer clutch back pins can be correlated to more recently manufactured wings, although whether or not that line can be drawn between WWII and KW or KW and cold war, or cold war and VN war, is probably not possible. I suspect that there are some variations in manufacturer etc--for example, AECo likely used short pin clutch back-made wings pre/earlyWWII, but were out of business before the KW. GEMSCO appears to have bought the dies used by AMICO after WWII and seemed to have started using the longer pins once they ran out of the old AMICO stock. So the idea that WWII/KW vintage issue wings had shorter pins, is probably usually valid (with all sorts of caveats). Another way to sometimes get a broad date on a wing is whether or not they used a silver solder or an electro-solder system to attach the pins. Earlier clutch back pins tend to have been soldered on the wings a using silver solder, which usually leaves a small pool of metal at the base of the pin. Electro-soldering doesn't leave a pool of solder--this technology is generally seen in more recently made wings (but not always) Yet another way to sometimes date wings by the their pin is whether or not the pin is just a straight piece of metal or is shaped like a nail. Earlier wings tend to have the simple wire, while later wings have the nail head and are electro-soldered. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarRelics Posted September 4, 2022 Share #8 Posted September 4, 2022 I saw this current listing for a WWII airborne wings grouping that to me obviously isn’t. Two of these wings didn’t exist as a award until the late 1940’s. Also the nail head prongs on all of them give them away as clearly post war. True WWII clutch backs are hard to find. I have 1 set in my collection that meets the criteria but even they are suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted September 4, 2022 Share #9 Posted September 4, 2022 None of these are from WW2, they are post war construction. There is a recent thread somewhere on the forum all about clutch back wings in WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarRelics Posted September 4, 2022 Share #10 Posted September 4, 2022 As I was sure that they weren’t but I didn’t think that it hurt to post an example of a deceptive description from eBay for the benefit of others. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted September 4, 2022 Share #11 Posted September 4, 2022 Who is the seller ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basic Rifleman Posted September 4, 2022 Share #12 Posted September 4, 2022 I just looked it up, and I don't believe the seller was trying to be deceptive as much as they don't know the era of these badges. We all know it's very popular (and usually more lucrative) to sell military doodads as "WWII" items. I would say this is a case of bad (or lazy) listing practices rather than outright deceptiveness. The seller's other items range from china, toys, video games and tools. This is not a dealer specific to militaria. This is just one of countless examples on eBay for any potential buyer to do their due diligence before purchasing anything.... Just because you've achieved the status of "eBay seller," doesn't make you an expert in anything.... I should know:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarRelics Posted September 4, 2022 Share #13 Posted September 4, 2022 I tend to be suspicious when I see items misrepresented and think the worst. To give them benefit of the doubt I can see where they may not be knowledgeable about what they have listed and innocently made an incorrect assumption. This one is far from the only one misdescribed. There are many others as well. We have all seen sellers that either had no idea of what they had or exaggerated the item, either innocently or deliberately. It can work to the buyers benefit as much as the sellers depending on the situation. It stuck out to me like a flashing neon sign which made me suspicious. The point being it pays to know your area of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rathbonemuseum.com Posted September 6, 2022 Share #14 Posted September 6, 2022 Here is one of the many discussions around clutch back insignia in WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1644 Posted May 15, 2023 Share #15 Posted May 15, 2023 I received my parachute wings in March 1948. they were the clutch back type. Not sure when the clutch type ceased production and replaced with pin type.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted May 16, 2023 Share #16 Posted May 16, 2023 On 5/14/2023 at 10:49 PM, john1644 said: I received my parachute wings in March 1948. they were the clutch back type. Not sure when the clutch type ceased production and replaced with pin type.......... Clutch type is still being used today, where pins started to go away during WWII, though pin back insignia was still being issued well into the Vietnam era. I find it interesting that you received a clutch back wing in 1948 as I have found pin back wings issued to newly minted paratroopers as late as 1967! It is obvious to me based on John 1644's post, that there was a mixed bag of what was issued at the airborne school over the decades. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rathbonemuseum.com Posted May 26, 2023 Share #17 Posted May 26, 2023 Here is a great reference on dating clutch back manufacturing starting pre-WWII https://hglanham.tripod.com/metalinsignia2/datingclutches.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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